Invincible Overlord wrote:So they started G3 by some unlucky person pulling the handle from the G2 series like a used slot machine 7-7-7.

And when one person jumps over the cliff, they all follow. So one-by-one they pull the lever and cross over.

The wizard studies the area carefully, and teleports the party back to home base, they prep and return for the trip back the next day.

They send a stealthy scout type to move ahead, and he moves into the main area unseen by the fire giant guards in the area. The dwarf on the other hand (the one who joined the party from G1) decided to walk right into the great hall and start the fight himself. Combat ensues and due to some good tactical planning on their part, they have a distinct advantage in the upper level.

So my question is:

Are the monsters in the lower levels usable by the fire giant king as allies, and have you done so in the past? Or are there any other suggestions to make it challenging?

I want to make G3 challenging for them, yet still award the PC's when they do well.

Assuming their has been communication between the levels, I would have the giants below realize there is something up. They should set up ambushes and attacks near the entrance from Level One. Trolls and guest giants should help. When the party goes down, there should be a battle royale in that hallway in front of the entrance and the Hall of Dead Kings!

If there are still giants on the first level (and the king is still alive), I would say any and all creatures on the three levels would be used as cannon fodder, particularly the trolls. It's not much of a stretch to have the King send for the trolls and send them at the party in waves to wear them down, supported by rock throwing giants.

I would also entertain the possibility that not all the fire giants were in the hall when it was attacked (a perfect logical conclusion). 1-3 days after the party attacks, I would say a small group of fire giants and hell hounds return from a patrol to find the carnage inside. If the party hasn't left guards or any sort of warning behind them, they could be in for a nasty surprise.

Personally, I would say the Drow do not assist the giants in defending the stronghold. They are too chaotic (IMO) to care about the fire giants and have their own plans to worry about.  I would keep them in place and have them deal with the party members as they encounter them.

FYI the last two times I ran this was using 2E rules (which makes the giants much tougher). I also said the fire giants had a pair of shamans of about 5th level, which is a fun surprise to player characters who have just cast a Haste or Slow and suddenly the shamans use Dispel Magic to knock it out!

Mike B.

There's some great play summaries/advice in TD#19, and it's well-worth digging up:  "The Battle for Snurre's Hall" and it's followed up by Bob Blake's classic "How Many Ettins is a Fire Giant Worth?"

Keep in mind that these need not be the only giants in the area. In all three G modules these giants represent the leaders of a large number of tribes or communities. There can also be giants out on patrol and hunter groups returning.

And while the drow may have their own plans those plans involve using these giants. I would say that if they can salvage a portion of their plans and aid the fire giants, then they will.

Within Snurre's hall the fire giants on every level should all come to the defense of Snurre or any surviving giants if called upon or alerted.

Kill the dwarf first.

A thought:

The fire giants withdraw to engage the PC's in some area that features lava or other heat sources as a factor in the battle...likely to limit movement.  Depending on how you calucualte fire giant immunity to fire, have the giants actually stand in a region that is lethal to player characters.

Make the area large to give the giants room to spread out and force the party to move around.  Place some giants in position to circle the party, where the thin-clad spell users are sheltering.

The room on the third level with the illusionary dragon could be a good starting point.  Draw the room extra large.  

Could the drow help out by making the giants invisible or covering them with an illusion?  Perhaps the giants hide inside the illusionary dragon itself...maybe just a few of them do that?  The players might be confused when giants start throwing boulders from inside an illusionary dragon or behind illusionary walls.

The fire giants do not suffer from the heat, but the PC's do.  They could suffer from ongoing heat and choking damage due to the environment as well as damage from making contact with the flames/lava/steam/whatever.

Cold-based spells create massive clouds of steam.....

The fire giants are adjusted to the low visibility environment so they take less of a penalty for the steam/smoke/whatever.

The giants throw lava/flames/flaming objects/whatever.  Maybe there is a trap or two involving cauldrons of lava...?  Molten iron...?

Calculate several traps so that they split the party into two groups.  How about the giants find a way to open a crevasse or cover one with an illusion...stand behind it....and lure characters to charge them?

Smart players make their characters immune to fire.  See what else might happen.