Yet Another PayPal Warning • Collecting General • The Acaeum

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Yet Another PayPal Warning
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mbassoc2003
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Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 5:08 pm

Just another warning about PayPal Security for all the online sellers here on Acaeum...

I'm sure that most of the transactions here are normal legitimate transactions processed through eBay's Buyer/Seller console, and therefore, sellers are protected against fraud. However, I have just discovered that PayPal UK only protects sellers who sell on eBay, and not any transactions processed through any other sales avenue. They protect all buyer transactions of any type, but only protect UK Sellers on eBay.

Furthermore, there is an avenue by which any buyer can remove any seller's Seller Protection on eBay, and that is by processing the payment to the seller by not using the buyer/seller console.

If you send funds directly to the seller for the goods, and select to send it as a personal payment using the personal payment tab in the send payment option, the seller has absolutely no seller protection whatsoever. Most sellers would only notice that the payment wasn't directly linked to the eBay transaction, and would ship to you anyway, as the cost amount and goods appeared to be correct and the buyers account was varified. But when you chargeback after the seller has shipped, the seller has no recourse, no protection, nada.

Only eBay items processed through the buyer seller console are eligable for seller protection. Someone I know has just lost £1K of camera equipment to that loophole. Valid transaction, tracked proof of delivery, chargeback, and no liability or protection from PayPal. They say it is your responsibility to confirm that the payment is a valid eBay payment for eBay goods, and not a payment for goods or services or a personal payment, before you ship your item. It is not their responsibility to tell you.

So, for those who want to protect themselves, only sell on eBay, and use the prescribed console. Don't use auctura or third party crap. And for those who want to steal from people, PayPal now make it easy for you with your very own 'personal' and/or 'services' options against which the seller cannot protect themselves once they have shipped the goods.

This week I've been mostly eating . . . The white ones with the little red flecks in them.

Gnat the Beggar
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Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 5:48 pm

"Guys, I am starting to think Tegel Manor might be haunted..."
Stated by me as a PC during a run of Tegel Manor DMed by killjoy at NTRPGCon 2010

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mbassoc2003
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Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 6:03 pm

Ironic thing is, £1K camera is on it's way to fraudster with Royal Mail. Royal Mail cannot hold or refuse to deliver to thief. PayPal say seller accepted a payment and there's no Seller Protection because buyer used the 'personal' option and then chargeback when she confirmed the tracking number to them, and the seller now sits and just watches the train crash knowing there's sweet FA she can do but kiss her money goodbye. Local Police in the buyer's area have been informed, but again, there's nothing they can do. Everyone says, "Tough Shi. You shouldn't have been such a twat." But PayPal will only tell you what they don't protect sellers from if you get high enough up the management tree (ie don't speek to the flipflops), and even then, they won't show you how to tell if a specific payment channel is being used, and they won't put the information in their help system either; "Because it could be used by fraudsters to get around our system."

This week I've been mostly eating . . . The white ones with the little red flecks in them.

Blackmoor
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Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 6:16 pm

mbassoc2003 wrote:Ironic thing is, £1K camera is on it's way to fraudster with Royal Mail. Royal Mail cannot hold or refuse to deliver to thief. PayPal say seller accepted a payment and there's no Seller Protection because buyer used the 'personal' option and then chargeback when she confirmed the tracking number to them, and the seller now sits and just watches the train crash knowing there's sweet FA she can do but kiss her money goodbye. Local Police in the buyer's area have been informed, but again, there's nothing they can do. Everyone says, "Tough Shi. You shouldn't have been such a twat." But PayPal will only tell you what they don't protect sellers from if you get high enough up the management tree (ie don't speek to the flipflops), and even then, they won't show you how to tell if a specific payment channel is being used, and they won't put the information in their help system either; "Because it could be used by fraudsters to get around our system."

So has this ever happened to you?

Games can get you through times of no money but money can not get you through times of no games!!

Gnat the Beggar
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Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 6:18 pm

I would have to take a road trip with my buddy the Louisville Slugger.
May not get any money back, but dude would be spending that and more on doctors sewing him up and body casts.

"Guys, I am starting to think Tegel Manor might be haunted..."
Stated by me as a PC during a run of Tegel Manor DMed by killjoy at NTRPGCon 2010

Charter Member of the ATM

mbassoc2003
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Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 6:38 pm

Not happenned to me before.
Almost did when some AH hit a BIN on an iPhone 3G I was selling, but I didn't ship. Newbie buyer hit BIN within about an hour of setting up his account. Did hook a few other iPhones that day, but not mine. I've never been stung badly. Most I've ever lost is about $70. Probably lose $100-150 a year in small transactions that 'go missing in the post'. In all likelihood are stolen or destroyed by Royal Mail staff. But thankfully out and out fraud I've been able to avoid mostly.

This guy is in Bristol. Seller in Scotland. Police already know so the trip south if it ended ugly would be premeditated. My view is you go down with a camera and you take photos of the mailman delivering the package and receiving signature and you phone the Polica as the mailman is coming down the street. But local Police have already told the seller not to think about coming down, saying in all likelihood this is a crim gang. But more likely they don't want to have to get up early, change shifts, or do work if they can avoid it. They are civil servants after all.

This week I've been mostly eating . . . The white ones with the little red flecks in them.

Mars
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Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 7:26 pm

Sounds like an episode on "The Real Hustle" - now that's an interesting show

benjoshua
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Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 9:30 pm

mbassoc2003 wrote:Just another warning about PayPal Security for all the online sellers here on Acaeum...

I'm sure that most of the transactions here are normal legitimate transactions processed through eBay's Buyer/Seller console, and therefore, sellers are protected against fraud. However, I have just discovered that PayPal UK only protects sellers who sell on eBay, and not any transactions processed through any other sales avenue. They protect all buyer transactions of any type, but only protect UK Sellers on eBay.

Furthermore, there is an avenue by which any buyer can remove any seller's Seller Protection on eBay, and that is by processing the payment to the seller by not using the buyer/seller console.

If you send funds directly to the seller for the goods, and select to send it as a personal payment using the personal payment tab in the send payment option, the seller has absolutely no seller protection whatsoever. Most sellers would only notice that the payment wasn't directly linked to the eBay transaction, and would ship to you anyway, as the cost amount and goods appeared to be correct and the buyers account was varified. But when you chargeback after the seller has shipped, the seller has no recourse, no protection, nada.

Only eBay items processed through the buyer seller console are eligable for seller protection.

So, if I understand you correctly, then I need to make sure the payment message includes the words, "Seller Protection - Eligible" somewhere in the message body. As long as that's in there, no worries. Interesting development.

Truth is worth finding and life is too short to work for money.

beasterbrook
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Posted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 10:19 pm

I've suspected this for a while, but there is no use in pointing it out to people until now.. and since I'm usually the buyer and not the seller it hasn't worried me too much..

To be covered all you need to do is make sure the buyer pays you from the paypal invoice you send through ebay, if the buyers pays you direct then there is nothing linking the transaction to the ebay auction and therefore no protection, I would suggest all you do if someone wins an auction and then pays differently you need to have the payment refunded and tell them you need it paid from the invoice. If sometimes hard to pay direct these days unless you have a persons email address which doesn't come up most of the times on paypal invoices... Having said that I have paid may people direct, but its the bad people you need to worry about not the people you know are good buyers.. I suppose that you should follows these rules, the chances of things like this mappening are low in this collecting field.. (but the so is winning the Lotto.. and everyone want that)..

Of course I can think of one possiable way around, if PayPal UK does and Paypal US does, maybe giving an invouice through the US site instead of the UK site will protect you as the transaction is not paypal uk?? (Just a thought)

Brette:)

Being healthy is merely the slowest possible rate at which one can die.

mbassoc2003
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Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 3:43 am

That also means that if you sell something privately, or from another website like RPGMarketplace.com or Amazon, you are not eligible for Seller Protection, and even if the words 'Seller Protection Eligible' appear on the transaction, that does not mean you have protection from chargebacks or alleged use of an unauthorised credit card. YOU ONLY GET PROTECTION WITH EBAY. I received an off eBay payment yesterday, and whilst the transaction says 'Eligible', there is no seller protection if the buyer disputes the transaction.

Bottom line is PayPal/eBay have an absolute monopoly. Do not sell anything to someone you don't know if you're not selling through eBay. Unless of course you're willing to kiss goodbye to it and the money.

This week I've been mostly eating . . . The white ones with the little red flecks in them.

Johnson
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Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 5:53 am

Hi,

I always guarantee all off-Ebay transactions anyway (and I do very few on Ebay).

As a business seller I think thats only reasonable.

So I take steps to enable me to recover any lost moneys from the Post Office.

If something is worth under $60 I get free insurance.

If its worth over about $90 I always pay a bit extra to send it insured.

Between $60 and $90 I take the hit and only claim the $60.

However, we lose very few parcels at all.

I've only ever once had a chargeback on an item (for $20 from an Australian) in 15+ years of selling.

Cheers,
Malc

I have a plan so cunning, you could put a tail on it and call it a weasel.

Johnson
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Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 5:56 am

PS

we did once have an order for £1000+ worth of cards from Nigeria.

The Missus nearly p*ssed herself laughing, before cancelling it.

Cheers,
Malc

I have a plan so cunning, you could put a tail on it and call it a weasel.

beasterbrook
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Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 6:29 am

I have to agree, the chances of being ripped off are extremely small, ebay tries to create a atmosphere of fear, if you don't sell through ebay and if you don't use paypal than you will be ripped off. We all know that ebay and paypal could care less, they are only interested in whats in it for them.. its a loophole they have made for themselves to force people to sell on ebay.. it doesn't matter what they do there are people always looking for the "holes" to ripp off other people, just have to accept it and move on..

Brette:)

Being healthy is merely the slowest possible rate at which one can die.

Deadlord
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Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 9:33 am

If you're not using eBay, there are plenty of other payment services that you can use.

If you hit a Rowsdower, you get to keep it.

mbassoc2003
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Posted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 11:29 am

RaisedFromTheDead wrote:If you're not using eBay, there are plenty of other payment services that you can use.

Yep.
If you take PayPal as a seller avoiding eBay, you need private business insurance, or you cannot do anything if a chargeback occurs. Postal insurance and proof of delivery do absolutely nothing to protect you unless you think you can build and prove a private presecution.

In this insident, the Police were on hand this morning to assist in the delivery of the Royal Mail package. The big down side of course is the seller has no money, and the camera equipment now sits in an evidence locker for more than a year while it goes to trial, and will be worth f"ck all by the time they get to resell it. So they get screwed anyway.

Regardless of which channel you use to sell stuff, PayPal will only provide Seller Protection if you sell on the eBay website and you use the eBay checkout. Off site transactions are only protected for the buyer. The seller has no protection against fraud.

This week I've been mostly eating . . . The white ones with the little red flecks in them.

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