Ok, new thread for this one.

Faro, you've got a book with a cover that resembles the 4th through 7th cover:
*Wizard logo, yellow banner, Yellow title, etc.
*No ISBN?
*orange endpapers/flyleaf

But which also has an interior like the 3rd:
* States "3rd Printing, January 1979" on copyright page
* Catalog on last page has been updated; now correctly reflects a future Dungeon Masters Guide and omits reference to Outdoor Geomorphs sets 2-4

But also has intermittent shading like a 4th?

Not sure there's more digging to be done, but I'll peruse my PHBs when I get home and maybe have more questions.  Otherwise this one is fairly open-and-shut; it's a 3rd plus and should be listed as a separate printing.

Does anyone else have a book like this?  (It's always nice when things aren't one-of-a-kind.)

Sometimes, I think you guys are just messing with me.

At least the catalog page matches the 5th MM cover...

faro wrote:Unfortunately I don't think I have a 4th to compare against. Does that still have the red & yellow stripe on the text block binding strip, or not?

I don't believe so, I'll check my stock tonight.

deimos3428 wrote:I don't believe so, I'll check my stock tonight.

I haven't really been following along, but I have a PHB 4th handy if you need anything checked.

So I went back to the PHB Errata ( http://www.acaeum.com/library/errata_phb.html ), looking for trouble.  I found some.

Specifically point 38A, a note that mumbles something vague about Picks for reasons unknown.

Looking at the 3rd vs. 4th, not only does the 4th have intermittent shading on the Weapon Types table -- the content of the tables are completely different!  

At first I thought it was a game mechanic change, but it's not.  It took me a while to figure it out but the table's simply reversed left to right.   Same goes for the Hurled Missles table below it.

3rd: Armor Class Adjustment columns 10 through 2, from left to right.
3rd+: ??
4th: Armor Class Adjustment columns 2 through 10, from left to right. (And intermittently shaded)

Please confirm if you are an owner of a 3rd/3rd+/4th.

> Specifically point 38A, a note that mumbles something vague about Picks for reasons unknown.

Was rather hoping that errata might be the insertion of a glaive-glaive-glaive-guisarme... (ouch)

> 3rd: Armor Class Adjustment columns 10 through 2, from left to right.
> 3rd+: ??
> 4th: Armor Class Adjustment columns 2 through 10, from left to right. (And intermittently shaded)

3rd+ as 3rd. And found a large candlewax(?) stain on that page to go with the reference sheet missing (yeah, +1 :/ ), found earlier on the 3rd. Doesn't pay to check too closely, some days.

Thanks for the spot, Tyson: way ahead of me on that.

faro wrote:3rd+ as 3rd. And found a large candlewax(?) stain on that page to go with the reference sheet missing (yeah, +1 :/ ), found earlier on the 3rd. Doesn't pay to check too closely, some days.

Curiouser and curiouser...it's like the 3rd?  That was not what I expected.  

Using the same notation as last time (* indicates new change, + indicates cumulative change), the cumulative differences of note are as follows, if I've got them right:

3rd: old cover, "3rd printing" on copyright page; page 38 armor class tables 10 --> 2; page 38 no shading; reference sheets no shading

3rd+: *new cover, "3rd printing" on copyright page; page 38 armor class tables 10 --> 2; page 38 no shading; *reference sheets intermittent shading

4th: +new cover; *4th printing on copyright page; *page 38 armor class tables 2 --> 10; *page 38 intermittent shading; +reference sheets intermittent shading

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Faro:  A follow-up question then, just fishing from the Errata:

On page 87, are the components for Delayed Blast Fireball V,S (3rd) or V,S,M (4th)?

Well, for some reason I'd just presumed they changed the last signature but it gets better, Tyson.

Checking forward from the back:

p.117/8; 3rd: Bards table not shaded (ref pages missing in copy), 3rd+: intermediate shading but also likewise for the psionics on page 111; i.e. the whole of the appendices and problematic if that's in 16s.

p.87 (good one, thx); 3rd+ Delayed Blast Fireball V,S,M (as 4th)

So.... checking that darkening to the edges of the pages, I open that up and hit page 64 almost on the dot. i.e. not the product of dirty hands, but of the 3rd+ being the front half of the 3rd, second half of the 4th, all bound in yellow band cover. That's the working theory, anyhow. Fun...

Still needing to find who else had that other 3rd with intermediate shading on the ref. sheet pages.

Would be a lot easier if TSR's printers had signature marks... ^^


[edit: OK, the second time I did that, being conservative as to grubbiness, I was a bit closer to page 80 - 70 to be exact, but it's pretty much spot on 64 at the top of the book where there's been the least "handling"/usage]

faro wrote:p.s. OK, shelf that thought for a bit. There's intermediate shading from page 18 onwards in the 3rd+ as well.

Got to break a few eggs, as they say!  To be honest I shared your suspicion regarding it being just the last signature at first, too, but the page 87 point nixes that one.

But that "line" at page 64 is definitely there, making it appear as though they've been storing/shuffling printed stock at some point along the line rather than producing the whole book at once.

Makes sense to me.

No intermediate shading on page 15.... (?) *goes to search again for something /close/ to a 4th* (or if anyone has one handy, please)

The 4th has shading on pg. 15, so it seems we had the idea backwards.  Lets go through what we know for sure.

• The 3rd+ is using the old 1st signature, pp. 1-16, as evidenced on pg. 15 -- no shading.
• But it's using the new 2nd signature, pp. 17-32, as evidenced on pg. 18, intermittent shading.
• It's also using the old 3rd signature, pp. 33-48, as evidenced on pg. 38, no shading and old column order.
• We don't know about the 4th signature, pp 49-64 yet.
• We don't know about the 5th siganture, pp 65-80 yet.
• It's using the new 6th signature, pp 81-96, as evidenced on pg. 87, the VSM for Delayed Blast Fireball.
• We don't know about the 7th signature, pp 97-112 yet.
• It's using the new 8th signature, pp 113-128, as evidenced on pg 123-126, the intermittent shading.

My working theory is it's using new (4th) even signatures, and old (3rd) odd signatures.  How would that line up with the darkening, if at all, and are there any other pages we can check?

[edit]Well, it turns out "yes".  Practically every table in the 4th printing has intermittent shading, and the 3rd print has none.  

I can't find any checks for the 4th/5th signatures yet as they are spell descriptions without any shaded tables, but for the 7th signature a 4th would have shading on pg. 111 under Psionic Disciplines.  If my even/odd theory is correct, yours does not.

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[edit again, excitedly]
Eureka!  Page 51, under "Animate Object". The 3rd printing lists "Casting Time: 8 segments".  The 4th printing lists "Casting Time: 9 segments"!  It's not noted in the errata, which makes for an extra-fuzzy feeling for this minutia hunter.

That means they went through and did a full edit, not just a table-shading change.

[edit again, practically hysterical]
Page 52, under "Stone Tell".  The components are VS (3rd) vs. VSM (4th).  I suspect there may be a few more...

[edit again, having calmed down slightly]Page 54, Wind Walk.  Casting Time "1 turn" vs. "1 round".  (Find out which printing your DM has before taking this spell, wow.) Also:

Page 57, Trip.  Casting time 5 segments vs. 4.
Page 58, Pyrotechnics.  VS vs. VSM.
Page 59, Hold Plant.  8 segments vs 6.

That's all I've got for signature #4.  Fortunately, I have at least one change for signature #5 as well!

page 66: Find Familiar.  "Duration: 1 turn/level" vs. "Duration: Special".
page 79: Cloud Kill. "VSM" vs. "VS".
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Well, I think that's all the PHB printing excitement I can handle for one evening, and I may have missed a few changes.  It might be worthwhile for a second/third/fourth pair of eyes to go through the spell descriptions with a fine-toothed comb.