faro wrote:Would hope that we'd be careful about needlessly throwing around such words as "fraud" unless 100% certain of that first, though. And if there are other approaches open such as bid retraction to use those first...

I have asked more than once to take this to the PM Route, but since you refuse to discuss this in that format I shall do so here.

I explained why I could NOT use the option of a bid retraction and why I used the word Fraud in my final attempt to get a response from the seller more than once.
Try to keep pace.... or try to pay more attention when you bash someone.

You continue to insist that I should not have posted my concerns about the item in that listing and my concerns about the seller in the shady sellers thread.
What the hell is this forum for (Especially that specific Thread) if not for that sort of thing?
And to be blunt that specific sellers total lack of response to not just my 3 E-Mails, but a total of 81 E-Mails about that one listing is very shady to say the least….
NONE of us knew she was in an airplane for 5 days straight.
We still don't know if that is actually true …

NEXT:
For you to continue to bring up your thoughts that I should have had advanced knowledge about your past situation regarding that same type of PC Sheet Pad from THREE freaking YEARS ago is simply crazy.
WHY WOULD I Search back 3 years looking for something you bid on by mistake BEFORE the fact?
And for the record I do not have a memory that would make it possible for me to recall that post tomorrow much less from THREE years ago… even if I had read it then…
Which I doubt, since I was seldom here in 2006…

Besides, if that series of posts had done anything to change the valuation of that item, one would think the Acaeum lists would have been revised to reflect that.
Obviously the Valuation Board did not agree with your opinion that one instance was enough to change the valuation of the item.
I know what your thinking now.
You mentioned that several more have sold for similar amounts since then too.
SHOW THEM….
And don't post more E-Bay listing links that are so old we can no longer see them.

From what I understand of the VB they wont normally use ONE listing to change a valuation.
I have had that pointed out to me… more than once and I believe them.

The listed value of the 1979 PC Sheet Pad is STILL listed at $27 for a near mint copy.
BUT please feel free to bid the next copy of that set that is listed on E-Bay up to $125 or more.
I won't bid on it, so you should get your second copy cheaper than your first.
Not that I know what you paid three years ago, since No actual price is stated in the post (The one back in 2006 that you keep referring to) about how much you paid back then....

viewtopic.php?p=61089&highlight=#61089

You also continue to bring up that Frank supports your opinion of the $125 value of the 1979 PC Sheets...
So, I read Franks reply about that back in 2006 too.
He stated nothing as to the numeric value of the 1979 version of those PC Sheet pads, nor did anyone else that I saw in the 2 pages after that first post of yours.

The thread is locked so I could not just click Quote so I copied and pasted here for you…

ExTSR
Prolific Collector
Joined: 01 May 2004
Last Visit: 11 Aug 2009
Posts: 822
Location: The Colonies... (uh, what year is it?)
Posted: Sat Jul 29, 2006 8:15 am         

I think it went high but only by a sliver. Those early sheets with Wham cover, whichever logo, are getting extremely hard to find. GenCon Autograph note: If you like defaced product (tho I know many of you emphatically do not), bring your copies of this & other Whammish items (like Guidon's Ironclad) for Tom to sign.

I do not see any price quote from this post, only that he thinks it sold for more than he expected… by a sliver.
And that in his opinion they are getting extremely hard to find.
Even if I had done the research you insist that I should have done before sending my first E-Mail to the seller, it would not have helped any at all, as there is No stated numeric valuation to use.

Another thing.
WHY continue pointing out that I should have researched that 3-year-old E-Bay listing before bringing my situation up on the Boards?
Those old E-Bay listing links are useless, as they cannot be brought up to look at!  
Or did you not know that?

Did you save that listing page to your computer?
Did you forward the link for that listing and all the others you say have gone really high for that item since then to the VB so that they could use them all to revise the valuations for that item?

Have ANY other 1979 versions actually sold for nearly that much since then?
I mean sales that you can actually point to with a valid still active link so we can all see, instead of just saying they happened.
If so, then send them to the VB so they can use that data to perhaps revise the valuations, so that the rest of us can be as well informed as you are.
Instead of bashing me (and others) because we prefer to use the Acaeum's database for our collecting needs, over your opinion.

Faro; despite your high estimation as to the worth of your own opinions; Your opinions are not nearly as useful to me as you think they should be (Sorry but it is true), and certainly not as helpful as the Acaeum's database is... to me as a collector.
And I cannot foresee a time when that might change...

Let the valuation board know they are using outdated information and that the valuations are totally off, but you should probably send them proof of that, or go eat cake.

Like it or not, agree or not, I will continue to use the Acaeum's data over your opinions.
Even if they are sometimes (In your opinion) outdated they are still a much more valuable collectors source of information than you seem to think.

Thanks anyway though.
It has been fun.

I am staying out of this fire-fight for obvious reasons, but I do want to clear up a few factual errors about the VB process.

Gnat the Beggar wrote:From what I understand of the VB they wont normally use ONE listing to change a valuation.

This is incorrect, unless things have taken a dramatic turn since I left the board.  I'll try to provide some insight as to how things used to work, anyway.  The valuation process is actually very clever.  It's set up in a way that no single member needs to be an "expert"; it is very formulaic.  Though it is still possible to actually learn a thing or two about grading, appraisal, and trending in the process.

A single sale will normally not affect a valuation significantly, because of the complexity of the algorithm.  However, every eBay sale available to the board, at least for the rares, is used in the calculation of the valuations unless they happen to slip by unnoticed.  Less rare items have a healthy subset taken -- there's just too much to grab it all, and enough that things don't move rapidly in any event.  (The valuations are always outdated, incidentally, as they are based on past sales.  They also cannot detect short-term trends.)

New sales are incorporated into the calculation and will affect the final valuations the next time they are generated -- which is somewhat irregular and in the order of once or twice a year.

An exception to the "everything counts" rule would be if condition (as estimated by the VB member, often there are discussions/concensus about this for particularly rare items when an individual is unsure and needs some guidance) can't be verified.  For example, if there is no picture in the listing.  We don't take the seller's word for it anymore than a buyer would.  In those cases the VB members often ask the seller for scans, but if they won't co-operate for whatever reason the sale can't be used as the algorithm relies in part on condition weighting.  

I believe there may also be a temporal component by now, as we were discussing it years ago.  If that's the case, older valuations carry less weight than more recent ones, if any (in the scale of years, not days).  The thinking there is that this will smooth out certain aberrations in rarely-seen items with few recorded sales.  (I proposed a near-fibonacci weighting sequence at that point to keep things constant in lieu of new sales...)

In any event, the vast majority of the actions taken by the VB do not involve a choice on the part of a member.  They merely collect data according to a standard set of guidelines.  They don't sit around going "I think that sale is way off; let's not include it."

Until last week, I never had an opinion about Faro's posting habits.
Now I do.

And I never doubted and will not deny that he most probably has forgotten more about collecting and such than I will ever know.

Hell, it is quite believeable that nearly every member of this Forum probably knows more about collecting that I do.

He does have a way with words though...

deimos3428 wrote:It's set up in a way that no single member needs to be an "expert"; it is very formulaic.  Though it is still possible to actually learn a thing or two about grading, appraisal, and trending in the process.

I suspect this might be nothing more than one of those valuations that have "slipped the net" for updates (not exactly being the highest profile "collectible"); the date given isn't the date the valuation was updated, of course. A few of those valuations are probably still closer to the original "default" values from when those were first set up, but I'd have to dig around to confirm that.
Understandable but manageable, albeit a "please do not take as gospel" type warning might not be a bad idea? Rather a thankless task, regardless, I'm sure...

Not to contradict Foulfoot, because he is partially correct.  The valuation board was stagnant for quite a while with only a few items being tracked.  But, I'm happy to say that the valuation board is alive and healthy now.

As of March/April of this year we completed the updating of the outdated procedures, developed and refined the groups that were previously organized, restructured, updated, and cleaned up the valuation spreadsheets, recruited members from the Acaeum community to fill the numerous vacancies, and distributed the groups so that we could begin tracking these items again.

The following groups are currently, and hopefully, being tracked by the valuation board members:

Group 1: (Original D&D)

- Chainmail (all editions)
- Original Woodgrain & White Box Sets (all editions)

Group 2: (Supplements)

- All Greyhawk, Blackmoor, Eldritch Wizardry, Gods, Demi-gods & Heroes and Swords & Spells.

Group 3: (Early Rulebooks/Sets)

- Basic Set (1st -- 3rd printings)
- Deities & Demigods (Cthulhu)
- DM Guide (True 1st print)
- Dungeon Masters Guide (2nd Alpha print)
- Monster Manual (1st & 2nd print)
- Players Handbook (1st -- 3rd printings)

Group 4: (R Series & RPGA Series)

- R 1-4 series of modules
- R 5-10 tournament versions (Added R9 & R10)
- RPGA 1-4
- Artists of TSR
- RP3 Fighting Wheel

Group 5: (Early Modules)

- Dwarven Glory (all prints)
- Ghost Tower of Inverness (mono)
- Lost Caverns of Tsojconth
- Lost Tamoachan
- Palace of the Vampire Queen
- Pharaoh (Daystar West)
- Quest for Fazzlewood
- Rahasia (Daystar West)

Group 6 (Modern Rares)

- 10th Anniversary Collector's Set
- 10th Anniversary Combo Packs
- AC5 Player Character Record Sheet
- Adventurers Guild Modules
- B3 Palace of the Silver Princess (Orange cover)
- Dark & Hidden Ways (booklet only and unopened pack)
- Jade Hare (with and without cover)
- Wild Things (booklet only and unopened pack)

Group 7:  (Early D&D Accessories)

- Character Archaic (all printings)
- Character Record (Green, Orange)
- Character Record Sheets (Lizard & Wizard Logo)
- Dungeon Geomorphs (Individual sets, prints 1-3)
- Dungeon Masters Screen (1st print)
- Hex Pad & Hex Sheets (TSR)
- Monster & Treasure Assortments (individual sets, prints 1-3)
- Outdoor Geomorphs (all prints)
- Quadrille Graph Paper

Group 8: (Semi-Rare Modules)

- B9 Castle Caldwell and Beyond
- B10 Night's Dark Terror
- B11 King's Festival
- B12 Queen's Harvest
- I13 Egg of the Phoenix
- LC1 Gateway to Ravens Bluff
- N3 Treasure Hunt
- X10 Red Arrow/Black Shield
- X12 Skarda's Mirror

Group 10: (Rarity 2 Items of Note)

- WGA4 Vecna Lives!
- WGR1 Greyhawk Ruins
- WGR3 Rary the Traitor
- WGR4 Marklands
- WGR5 Iuz the Evil
- WGR6 City of Skulls
- WGS1 Five Shall Be One
- WGS2 Howl From the North

Group 11: (Miscellaneous Rares & Semi-Rares)

- Australian Basic Rulebook (1st - 3rd printings)
- Australian Monos (G1 - G3 and D1-3)
- Dragon Magazines 11-20
- Dungeon Magazine 2-6

Group 13: (Supermodules)

- A1-4 Scourge of the Slave Lords
- B1-9 In Search of Adventure
- GDQ1-7 Queen of the Spiders
- I3-5 Desert of Desolation
- S1-4 Realms of Horror
- T1-4 Temple of Elemental Evil

Group 15: (Foreign Rares & Semi-Rares)

- French Companion
- French Expert
- French Master
- French Set 1: Basic Rules (1st print)
- French T1-4
- German S1 Tomb of Horrors
- Italian CM1
- Italian GAZ5
- Italian Set 1: Basic Rules
- Italian Set 2: Expert Rules
- Italian X5

Group 16: (Rarity 2 Monochromes)

- D1 Descent Into the Depths (mono)
- D2 Shrine of the Kuo-Toa (mono)
- D3 Vault of the Drow (mono)
- G1 Steading of the Hill Giant Chief (mono)
- G2 Glacial Rift of the Frost Giant Jarl (mono)
- G3 Hall of the Fire Giant King (mono)

Group 17: (Rarity 2 Monochromes)

- B1 In Search of the Unknown (mono)
- C1 Hidden Shrine of Tamoachan (mono)
- S1 Tomb of Horrors (mono)
- S2  White Plume Mountain (mono)
- T1 Village of Hommlet (mono)

There are still four groups that have not been updated entirely.  Sorry to those valuation board members that are waiting for them.   They will be distributed soon.

Here are the groups that are yet to be distributed:

Group 9: (Rare Magazines)

- Dragon Magazine (Issues 1-10)
- Dungeon (Issue #1)
- Fantasy Worlds Newsletter (any issue)
- Secrets of the Sages
- Strategic Preview (all issues)
- Strategic Review (all issues)
- TSR Spotlight
- TSR Worlds Newsletter (any issue)

Group 12: (UK Rares & Semi-Rares)

- Basic Rulebook (1st & 2nd print)
- Basic Rules (5th print digest-size)
- Character Sheets (Games Workshop)
- Dungeon Floor Plans (Games Workshop)
- Hex Sheets (Games Workshop)
- Softcover Players Handbook & Monster Manual
- ST1 Up the Garden Path
- UK Monos (G1-3, D1-3, B1 & S1)

Group 14: (Miscellaneous Collectibles)

- Coloring Book
- Dragon Dice
- Dragon Dice Percentage Generators
- First Quest Cassette
- First Quest LP
- Monster Cards
- Understanding D&D
- Your Personal Invitation to Adventure

Group 18: (Semi-Rare & Carded Modules)

- B2 Keep on the Borderlands (7th print - carded)
- EX1 Dungeonland by Gary Gygax (2nd print - carded)
- EX2 Land Beyond the Magic Mirror (2nd print - carded)
- I4 Oasis of the White Palm (2nd print - carded)
- L2 Assassin's Knot (2nd print - carded)
- L3 Deep Dwarven Delve
- WG4 Forgotten Temple of Tharizdun (2nd print - carded)

We will be collecting the recorded valuations at the end of this year.  They will then be submitted to Foul so that we can update The Aceaum valuations to reflect more recent trends.

Note that we are tracking quite a few character sheets with the new groups!

That is all very encouraging

FoulFoot wrote:.... character sheets (to name but one example) have "flown below the radar" ....

For Collectors who want them: I somehow suspect that they will no longer be flying under the radar.
The next ones that show up on E-Bay will likely get plenty of attention.
More than usual.

faro wrote:although another profile boost for those in general is probably overdue.

Heartily agreed, self-interest aside.  

dbartman wrote:Group 15: (Foreign Rares & Semi-Rares)

- French Master
- French Set 1: Basic Rules (1st print)

As a quick note:

French Master boxed set doesn't exist.

There is 4 different prints of French Basic Rules (Only 3 are listed on Acaeum http://www.acaeum.com/ddindexes/setpage ... icfor.html)
I can give scans and information about the difference between 3rd and 4th print.