TSR covered so much ground with D&D, it's hard to imagine anything RPG-wise in some print format that would be "revolutionary". Especially anything to do with fantasy. Also consider that persons we might consider genius created/added to this game and current "genius" game designers are working with more $$$ computer CCG ideas probably.

JasonZavoda wrote:There are a number of D&D and AD&D clones being produced at the moment. Is there a reason since it is often cheaper to pick up AD&D rulesbook off of ebay?

To me as a player/DM, the clones have two main advantages: They're cheaper, and they're better organized.

Yes, AD&D rulebooks are pretty cheap on eBay, but the *free* pdfs of OSRIC, Labyrinth Lord, Swords & Wizardy, and others are, well, cheaper than cheap.

Having started a new AD&D group in the last couple months, I can say that the players find the PHB relatively difficult to navigate. OSRIC has a better index and is generally better organized and better with explanatory text.

That said, I run my games with AD&D, not with OSRIC.

I haven't had the chance to go through the C&C rulebook in detail yet but a quick read through and it looks like a reprint of the PHB.

One massive difference between C&C and AD&D 1e is C&C's addition of a skill system, which promotes a pretty different default play experience. (Though not necessarily different from how any individual group might play 1e, if that group bolts on a skill system.)

What I'm wondering is why? Is it about creating a new game system? Or a game system based on D&D/AD&D or about publishing AD&D material (like Fullerton has done) and not getting chased down by the WoTC enforcers?

Supposedly the latter was the primary reason; give publishers an OGL safe harbor under which to publish 0e, 1e, and/or basic compatible accessories. Not that the safe harbor is necessary, mind you ... just more convenient for some publishers, I guess.

In retrospect, the clones have also effectively prevented WotC (or any future owner of D&D) from taking D&D away. Now that various pre-3e editions of D&D have -- for most intents and purposes - been made freely available via the OGL, they can't be taken away.

And this is useful for times when the D&D rule back catalog is not legally purchasable in pdf form.

SimperingToad wrote:
Mostly that. AD&D is no longer supported by WotC/Hasbro. If anyone wants to make new material for AD&D, 3rd party is a must. It could be made for free, but free doesn't pay the bills. Not that Retro does, but you can't expect it to immediately.

Places to get AD&D books are getting fewer and fewer, but there is potential for Retro to catch on and turn up in more places.

*taps foot incessantly with hands on hips* You do know there are a number of people who frequent both sites, don't you, young man?  

There is a vast, unbelievably vast, amount of AD&D rulebooks out there. I don't think they are going to disappear or become unreasonably expensive in the next 10 possibly 20+ years.

You cannot copyright a rulesystem so there is little fear in publishing modules using AD&D as the underlying rule system. You still are unlikely to make much money doing it.

AD&D is an excellent system developed by some incredible people. I object to loudmouth jerks who stand on the shoulders of giants and claim that they now tower above these great men. Whether these people are on this site or any other site doesn't matter.

JasonZavoda wrote:

There is a vast, unbelievably vast, amount of AD&D rulebooks out there. I don't think they are going to disappear or become unreasonably expensive in the next 10 possibly 20+ years.

You cannot copyright a rulesystem so there is little fear in publishing modules using AD&D as the underlying rule system. You still are unlikely to make much money doing it.

AD&D is an excellent system developed by some incredible people. I object to loudmouth jerks who stand on the shoulders of giants and claim that they now tower above these great men. Whether these people are on this site or any other site doesn't matter.

Jason, 1E rulebooks now sell in the $20-$35 range on ebay...when you can find them.  My sources are drying up faster than I can count.  Many times I find myself with no copies of the DMG, MM or PHB available in my ebay store, a circumstance that would have been laughable 10 years ago when I could pick up multiple copies for $5 each at my local Half Price Books. They are getting harder to find.  And if you want to play OD&D....that's an ever tougher proposition.



Most retroclones are free, and easily downloadable.  Can't get much more cheaply available than that.....



I have never met a single soul who plays 1E "as is".  Those that say they do, when I ask them about this rule or that rule, always say "Well, yeh we changed that but EVERYONE changes that rule...."  We all houserule to a certain extent, even a great system like AD&D benefits from a tweak or two.  



I see a lot of the retroclones as being more published house rules than anything. If you don't want to use them, you don't have to, but if they happen to bring a few new faces to the game table more power to them.



If I was running a game at a con there is no question I would use OSRIC or Swords & Wizardry in lieu of official published material.  It would be simply due to the fact I could more easily supply these to players than the real thing.



Mike B.

Badmike wrote:2.  You can legally write adventures for OSRIC, S&W, Labyrinth Lord, etc.  You cannot do the same for 1E (your mileage may vary, as Black Blade and Guy Fullerton can attest).

Allan can correct me (because shamefully I've not bought the initial Black Blade offering yet), but I think the Black Blade stuff is OGL-based.

My stuff ... er ... one (so far) AD&D module is not OGL-based, and insofar as I've been advised, it's legal. Other far more prominent publishers have done similar things at various points in the past. Kenzer & Co. has done it multiple times, there's one instance by Grenadier (Cloudland), there's Carcosa, and I'm sure there are plenty of others.

Guy Fullerton wrote:
My recent experience doesn't mesh with that. I went on a 1e PHB buying over the last few months, and most cost me $5-$10 for reasonable condition (about VG or so). A quick completed listings search shows that to still be true; plenty are available in the $5-10 range in reasonable condition, and some go unsold. Ditto for the DMG, MM, D&DG, etc.

Now those prices are without shipping, but even tacking on $3-8 shipping, it's still not the $20-35 range.

There are five 1E PHB on ebay right now....and some are trashed, to be charitable.  I don't consider that "plenty", but whatever.  I think if you are patient and willing to bid and wait out other bidders you can find some cheap, but if the issue is you need a copy for next week's game, then that's a different story.  If you need 5 more copies to hand out to all your players (not to mention a couple of MM and DMGs) that's darn near impossilbe at short notice.



I must be living right or I'm a helluva seller because the last several idol cover PHB's I've sold have gone for $30 or more. However I do tend to sell only above average copies.  



My experience is anecdotal but it's become quite the chore to locate these anymore in "resellable" shape for under $10 at any of my usual haunts.  I refust to buy off ebay as the last two "excellent" copy books I snagged had major issues (true, I was buying to resell) with writing and stains in the interiors.



However that's immaterial.  What's gospel is that it's considerably easier to have a copy of Osric or S&W in my hands than it is any 1E rulebook, and that's not even debatable. I can have a copy of either rules system in my hands and in the hands of all my buddies in less time it'll take you to bid on, buy, and pay for even one copy on ebay. Oh, and they are FREE.



Mike B.

Badmike wrote:

There are five 1E PHB on ebay right now....and some are trashed, to be charitable.  I don't consider that "plenty", but whatever.  I think if you are patient and willing to bid and wait out other bidders you can find some cheap, but if the issue is you need a copy for next week's game, then that's a different story.  If you need 5 more copies to hand out to all your players (not to mention a couple of MM and DMGs) that's darn near impossilbe at short notice.

I must be living right or I'm a helluva seller because the last several idol cover PHB's I've sold have gone for $30 or more. However I do tend to sell only above average copies.  

My experience is anecdotal but it's become quite the chore to locate these anymore in "resellable" shape for under $10 at any of my usual haunts.  I refust to buy off ebay as the last two "excellent" copy books I snagged had major issues (true, I was buying to resell) with writing and stains in the interiors.

However that's immaterial.  What's gospel is that it's considerably easier to have a copy of Osric or S&W in my hands than it is any 1E rulebook, and that's not even debatable. I can have a copy of either rules system in my hands and in the hands of all my buddies in less time it'll take you to bid on, buy, and pay for even one copy on ebay. Oh, and they are FREE.

Mike B.

Mike,



You don't toss out a PHB to newbies at a con. But you can sit down and hand them out AD&D characters and get them swinging swords and casting spells in a few minutes.  Sit there behind a nice DMs screen with a classic PHB,DMs guide and MM at hand and you can get them interested in

AD&D an hour into the game.



If these newbies can afford a movie, drink and popcorn, they can afford a rulebook. Get them interested in the game that sits like a horned and gem-eyed idol behind these free print-outs and scanned retros.



Don't drink the new coke, stick with the old green glass bottles that can double for a blunt weapon in an emergency.





Anyway, thanks for confirming what I thought was behind this retro business. I haven't crossed paths with any of these other retro guys, just some fans of Castle & Crusades that aren't doing any favors supporting that game system by trash talking AD&D.

Guy Fullerton wrote:I'm with you there, though, especially if you're looking to do so economically. It took me about 1.5 months to get my 4 extra copies of the PHB to take to conventions.

Yeh, I guess I'm only talking idol covers. Cmon, the Easley cover just feels wrong, doesn't it?  

I checked my last five PHB sales on Ebay. I was giving myself a little too much credit...they were 24.99, 24.99, 24.99, 30 and 30. But like I said I tend to resell nicer copies and hoard lesser copies (mostly to pass out at next year's NTRPG Con).  

Ten years ago I had a stacks of 1E books and couldn't give some of the them away (15 Fiend Folios which I started selling at 9.99 and took almost a decade to get rid of).  Now I'm scraping the gutter looking for copies.  I'm just looking in the wrong places maybe.

Hell, just two years ago I was able to pick up several copies of the PHB at the Gencon store for $5 or less for our Tegel Manor game. Last year?  No copies at all. Whose buying them all?

Maybe

The prices for core three 1e books has increased steadily over the past 12-18 months. Two years ago you could grab any of the three for $5 in pretty solid condition. Or better yet, you could find them in lots for under $15 and save on the shipping.

I think the advantage to playing 1e vs the clones is simply the amount of ancillary material that is available. Modules, supplements, campaign settings etc.  All of it is still available - most of it relatively cheap.

As far as publishing new material for 1e/D&D, Black Blade is doing it under OGL. I just do not see Hasbro taking the time to chase publishers down who make an attempt to give them credit and stick to the OGL.