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Just picked up 4th edition
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JasonZavoda
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Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 9:55 am

A set of 4e rulebooks popped up on ebay for $45 and I knew I had to pick them up and give the system a look over. I still play 1e and never got into 3e (gave my niece the rulebooks after trying the game out and never looked back) but I am so inherently critical of these later editions I figure I need to give this new one more of a chance than scanning the rulebooks before I say how much it sucks.

Actually all the talk about 4e being more of a miniatures game than a RPG is making it more interesting to me.

I am noticing sets of rulebooks dropping in price.

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Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 9:59 am

Talk of 4.5

ShaneG.

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JasonZavoda
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Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 10:12 am

Plaag wrote:Talk of 4.5

ShaneG.

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Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 10:36 am

Yeah, we had to pick it up for cheap when it first came out. After attending the gaming day to promote it, the new rules intrigued me and my partner.

Having had a quick readthrough, I still hate the new tieflings simply because of their name (petty I know) but the actual rules feel well.. streamlined and simple. It feels more... old school with some mmorpg elements and definitely a lot less clunky and annoyingly overcomplex as 3rd ed.
The only problem I found... the monster manual. WHY ARE THERE NO MONSTER DESCRIPTIONS!? If you've never ever played D&D before how are you meant to know what the hell a Bugbear is unless they actually bother to describe it you know? but nope... there are just pictures... for SOME of the monsters but not all (I must admit, the art is a lot nicer though. Someone actually read the vrock description and realised hey, they're meant to look like vultures! )

I just think it's a shame they decided to get rid of the text describing each critter. A real oversight if you ask me and something that will make it difficult for new gms who honestly don't want to have to imagine what something looks like based only on the rather minimal "female demon" or whatever descriptor.

I like that first level mages actually can cast magic now! ahahaha.

It'll be interesting to see what they do with Bards (i'm hoping for something that is very different to the jack of all trades little bit of crappy magic, minor thief and minor moral bonuses.. something more focused on the Bard's status as moral booster and less of this pointless cantrips. Who's ever used a bard's magic ever? it's like ranger magic.. it's just plain crap)

I'd also like to see what they do with some of the other classes absent but to be honest, you no longer need the sorc with the new magic rules.
Never again shall the mage yell "i'm out of spells!" lol

A very different game 4th ed, which people either love or hate.

"Somehow, in hell I knew there would be mushrooms"

JasonZavoda
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Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 10:46 am

flying_purple_monkfish wrote:Yeah, we had to pick it up for cheap when it first came out. After attending the gaming day to promote it, the new rules intrigued me and my partner.

Having had a quick readthrough, I still hate the new tieflings simply because of their name (petty I know) but the actual rules feel well.. streamlined and simple. It feels more... old school with some mmorpg elements and definitely a lot less clunky and annoyingly overcomplex as 3rd ed.
The only problem I found... the monster manual. WHY ARE THERE NO MONSTER DESCRIPTIONS!? If you've never ever played D&D before how are you meant to know what the hell a Bugbear is unless they actually bother to describe it you know? but nope... there are just pictures... for SOME of the monsters but not all (I must admit, the art is a lot nicer though. Someone actually read the vrock description and realised hey, they're meant to look like vultures! )

I just think it's a shame they decided to get rid of the text describing each critter. A real oversight if you ask me and something that will make it difficult for new gms who honestly don't want to have to imagine what something looks like based only on the rather minimal "female demon" or whatever descriptor.

I like that first level mages actually can cast magic now! ahahaha.

It'll be interesting to see what they do with Bards (i'm hoping for something that is very different to the jack of all trades little bit of crappy magic, minor thief and minor moral bonuses.. something more focused on the Bard's status as moral booster and less of this pointless cantrips. Who's ever used a bard's magic ever? it's like ranger magic.. it's just plain crap)

I'd also like to see what they do with some of the other classes absent but to be honest, you no longer need the sorc with the new magic rules.
Never again shall the mage yell "i'm out of spells!" lol

A very different game 4th ed, which people either love or hate.

I think it may be a good thing to come to 4e by way of 1e without any stops in between. A lot of things being said here about 4e make me shake my head in sadness over what people call D&D nowdays. The Monster Manual without text descriptions, I have to see this.

JohnGaunt
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Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 1:09 pm

JasonZavoda wrote:I am noticing sets of rulebooks dropping in price.

The main Half Price Books in Dallas has the three rulebooks for $18 apiece. 4e adventures and the 4e preview books are also at HPBs that I have visited.

I don't know if someone died or became so disillusioned with 4e that he sold it for a few dollars apiece.

JasonZavoda
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Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 1:16 pm

JohnGaunt wrote:The main Half Price Books in Dallas has the three rulebooks for $18 apiece. 4e adventures and the 4e preview books are also at HPBs that I have visited.

I don't know if someone died or became so disillusioned with 4e that he sold it for a few dollars apiece.

I have noticed a bit of 4e disillusionment, but I don't know if it is significant. I think the main concern by WOTC is not that 4e will flop but that it just won't do well enough to meet their lion share of the market requirements.

flying_purple_monkfish
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Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 2:18 pm

I think a lot of the powergaming kiddies who liked 3.5 got pissy about 4th ed for being so different to their precious 3.5... which frankly... wasn't that great a system to begin with.

As a result, it's divided the fans... heh. Oh well, most of the old school D&D fans i've spoken to, the ones who stuck to od&d or even AD&D geeks like myself have all said they rather like 4th ed or at least can see it's potential. It's the 3.5 fans who hate it on the whole, possibly because they still can't see the flaws in 3rd ed heh. Oh well, here's hoping it doesn't completely flop, that'd be a bit of a blow to the hobby wouldn't it?

We're still hoping for a rereleased Dark Sun... because it'd work under the new rules. Dunno about the other settings though, their "simplified" cosmology makes my head hurt... which is saying something given I'm a planescape collector.

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grodog
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Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 5:00 pm

I've heard that 4e's much closer to OD&D and AD&D than 3e was, and would be curious to see if you guys also think so??

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simon
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Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 5:28 pm

I have given the three core books a moderate read and I can't seem to get away from feeling that I'm reading the instructions for a computer game.

One problem seems to be that the character classes have started to meld into one. There is none of the uniqueness left for each class.

I completely agree with the MM description problems. They are pitiful. Where 3.5E scores exceptionally is the background material to the monsters; 4E two lines and a stats block. It was one of the things that 3E did well....giving lots of quality background to all parts of the game which WOTC seem to have forgotten.

Having said this I wouldn't be opposed to a hyper-complex computer game with 100% human input but I am not convinced that D & D is the game for it. :?:

flying_purple_monkfish
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Posted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 7:46 pm

Frankly, 3rd eds monster manual was pretty piss poor too. Ok it had some info and background on most of the races but gone were diet, habitat.. all the interesting things that made the monster manual read like a field guide. Come on, wouldn't a field guide be awesome?

There is though, I agree.. some real mmorpg feel to 4th ed. Is it a bad thing? I dunno... i've only played one game of it and it worked fairly well... so I guess only time and personal preference will really tell.

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Badmike
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Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 12:45 am

grodog wrote:I've heard that 4e's much closer to OD&D and AD&D than 3e was, and would be curious to see if you guys also think so??

Yes....but with many qualifications. I mean, Gamma World is closer to AD&D than Call of Cthulhu...but you wouldn't tell anyone "Oh, you love D&D? Let's play Gamma World instead of CoC, it's closer to that game". It's still very different in several important ways.

So far what I've read, some of the adventures have much more of an old school feel than most of the stuff written for 3/3.5. What Jason said Come to 4E straight from 1E actually does work a lot better than if you have also partaken of 2E and 3E.

Mik eB.

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Blackmoor
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Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 1:53 am

4E sucks, it is not even remotely similar to 1st ed; whoever siad that never played it.

Lets see where do I start

No spell books
Kobalds with 40 + hit points
1st level encounters that take 1+ hour to play through
Ridiculous skill encounters that make no sense (trying to dice roll actual problem solving ??)
Man the list goes on and on and I am to tired to do it

4E really bites I played it quite a bit and I am leaving it behind.

Games can get you through times of no money but money can not get you through times of no games!!

Badmike
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Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 2:27 am

Blackmoor wrote:4E sucks, it is not even remotely similar to 1st ed; whoever siad that never played it.

Lets see where do I start

No spell books
Kobalds with 40 + hit points
1st level encounters that take 1+ hour to play through
Ridiculous skill encounters that make no sense (trying to dice roll actual problem solving ??)
Man the list goes on and on and I am to tired to do it

4E really bites I played it quite a bit and I am leaving it behind.

Cmon Jeff....TELL US WHAT YOU REALLY THINK!!!

Seriously I want more details on the 10 hour combat you had when playing 4E you kept alluding to.....!

Mike B.

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flying_purple_monkfish
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Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 6:30 am

10 hour combat? lol. As a GM i'd have been bored.. but then.. I am one of those lazy ass gms who gets bored if combat goes on to long and just dictates that the party killed the damned thing. Gah.

Anyone play the game day scenario? whooo... no-one thought that one through. Two golems with about 200 hp? (we were first level) AND a mage to contend with? Collapsing dungeon at the end? oh we all died, we totally all died. Didn't help that the guy playing the cleric took the blurb "often plays the leader role" a little too seriously and got pissy when the rogue and wizard told him to f off. hahahaha.

Poor Kobolds, I always liked Kobolds... especially when they were all fuzzy and yipped. Ahhh old school kobolds.. how we miss you. Maybe they gave em more h/p to make them a little less well.. arrow fodder heh, dunno.

Anyway, i've said it before and i'll say it again. Personal preference. I think people should at least play a session before making a judgement on the system... though it also comes down to the quality of your gm. I've seen bad gms ruin perfectly good systems and really amazing gms make frankly terrible systems work. It's strange... but I think it really is a fairly major factor.

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Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 8:17 am

grodog wrote:I've heard that 4e's much closer to OD&D and AD&D than 3e was, and would be curious to see if you guys also think so??

D&D 4th is not the D&D game. It is only D&D because of the brand.

As a RPG it is simple and fun to play. The combat system has a lot crunch but it doesn't overwhelm the DM or the player with complexity. It achieves by using the same design as Magic the Gathering where there is a simple set of core rules and everything else is an exception to the rule with the text describing how it works.

I have DMed it several times and found the whole thing easy to prep for. About as easy as OD&D. The DM Guide is probably the best next to the 1st edition DMG.

The 4th edition game feels more old school because so much of it focuses on combat and everything else is very light. It like Arms Law, Spell Law in that regard. The sample dungeon, and setting are old school in presentation and tone.

Understand a lot of what people complain about as Tyranny of Fun are given as suggestions. Instead of having OD&D/AD&D monster/treasure by level chart they grade the monsters more finely to allow it to be adjusted by the DM. They exposed more of the math behind how the system is balanced. The rules are presented as guidelines. Along with the DMG talking about all types of playing styles from traditional to DMless.

A lot of people trying to pick D&D 4th are only citing from certain sections and ignoring the others. The general tone of the DMG is that here what we know about role-playing as the DM you choose how to run your game.

However doesn't mean D&D 4th is the greatest game on earth.

The problem as I see are nothing to do with the actual game. They are: It not the D&D game but a completely different game, it is high fantasy 24/7 with the mix of races and power descriptions, it has reduced character customization considerably from 3rd edition.

These three alone would cause current fans to become upset. To top it all off the Game System License has been a public relation disaster further souring the opinion of the community.

Badmike
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Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 10:04 am

robertsconley wrote:
D&D 4th is not the D&D game. It is only D&D because of the brand.

As a RPG it is simple and fun to play. The combat system has a lot crunch but it doesn't overwhelm the DM or the player with complexity. It achieves by using the same design as Magic the Gathering where there is a simple set of core rules and everything else is an exception to the rule with the text describing how it works.

I have DMed it several times and found the whole thing easy to prep for. About as easy as OD&D. The DM Guide is probably the best next to the 1st edition DMG.

The 4th edition game feels more old school because so much of it focuses on combat and everything else is very light. It like Arms Law, Spell Law in that regard. The sample dungeon, and setting are old school in presentation and tone.

Understand a lot of what people complain about as Tyranny of Fun are given as suggestions. Instead of having OD&D/AD&D monster/treasure by level chart they grade the monsters more finely to allow it to be adjusted by the DM. They exposed more of the math behind how the system is balanced. The rules are presented as guidelines. Along with the DMG talking about all types of playing styles from traditional to DMless.

A lot of people trying to pick D&D 4th are only citing from certain sections and ignoring the others. The general tone of the DMG is that here what we know about role-playing as the DM you choose how to run your game.

However doesn't mean D&D 4th is the greatest game on earth.

The problem as I see are nothing to do with the actual game. They are: It not the D&D game but a completely different game, it is high fantasy 24/7 with the mix of races and power descriptions, it has reduced character customization considerably from 3rd edition.

These three alone would cause current fans to become upset. To top it all off the Game System License has been a public relation disaster further souring the opinion of the community.

You make some great points....

I still assert that if they had called the game "D&D Mini Wars" it would be wildly popular. Calling it D&D 4E put unneccessary expectations on the system and in the fan's mind.

The GSL is a public relations disaster that could derail the entire enterprise. Horrible idea and WOTC really needs to see what the hell it's marketing department is up to. First the cancellation of Dragon & Dungeon mags, then Gleemax, now the embarrasment of very few of the 3rd party gaming companies signing on to the GSL. Personally I'd fire all of them and get someone in there that knows what they are doing.

I can't believe I'm saying this but I'd give the game a chance. The scenarios I've seen so far roam from worthless (Talon Pass) to Genius (Pyramid of Shadows) but all of them have an old school vibe. It's going to be very interesting to see where they go from here, I'm actually quite intrigued by where WOTC and Hasbro are going to go with all this.

Mike B.

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Zenfinite
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Posted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 10:56 am

The last time we started a discussion about 4e, the whole board almost came up in in arms!! We're starting on this train again?

I've DMed a dozen games of 4e (I play it maybe twice a month), and my current 2 year 3.5 game is going to end, and the new 4e game sill start up next month. Here are my bulletpoint pros and cons for ease of reading, and that should pretty much sum me up on this matter.

PROS-

1) Easy to set up. Wow. Building encounters (combat anyway) are almost plug N play. As a DM, figuring out what monsters my players can beat was very complicated in previous editions, today, simple.
2) Balanced. Now granted, my PCs are only level 3 in my game, but so far, the combats and powers seem well balanced. We've had a few challenging battles, and a few easier ones, but nothing too far either direction.
3) Small. So far, with 3 books, it's pretty straight-forward. No more searching through 58 books like we do with 3.5 for a feat. Again, this will probably change as the game progresses, but I think in MY games at least, I plan on limiting the add-on books.
4) Very transferrable to OD&D. Like I mentioned on the previous thread, the game I am running is a direct transfer of Keep on the Borderlands. It works very, very well. I plan on running entire campaigns in 4e based off the old modules. The rules might have changed, but, the old modules are still the greatest. Also, the older modules have a certain hack N slash feel to them that lends itself very well to 4e.

CONS-

1) It's VERY combat oriented. I guess this being a con depends on your love of combat. Personally I think an RPG with no dice flinging is basically a LARP, and LARPs can die in a fire.

However, it is weighted towards combat, and people may or may not like that.
2) It's very different. They (WoTC) really went in an entirely new direction with this one, trying to meld MMORPGs into a pen & paper game. Logically, I can completely understand why they did this, and it makes logical sense, but the old gamer in me cries a little inside at the death of the Old Guard. Only time will tell if enough new players join up to revitalize the game and start a New Guard.
3) Blackmoor is right, the skill encounter idea isn't exactly very good. The skill system is ok, it doesn't get as out of hand as 3.5 did, but, rolling dice to solve problems instead of RP is kinda lame. I modify those type of rules in pretty much every edition I've ever played.

I guess my final feelings are very positive on the game. As it stands right now, the feel may be different, but the end result is a definite improvement over 3/3.5. My players are having a ton of fun with the new combat system, I'm having a ton of fun converting old modules over for these newer players, and in the end, isn't fun what it's all about?

Zenfinite

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