The Acaeum Dungeons & Dragons
Collecting Forums

Copyright Infringement Question
Post new topic Reply to topic Page 1 of 1
Author


Active Collector

Posts: 14
Joined: Jan 25, 2013
Last Visit: Jun 19, 2014

Post Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 10:36 am 
 

I am an illustrator who owes much of my early inspiration to playing D&D.  I have always been fascinated with the imagery and illustrations used in the books.  I've been throwing around an idea of recreating my own version of a Monster Manual, featuring illustrations of unique creatures created by myself.  I would like to place it in the context of the old rulebooks, like an additional supplement to the Original D&D Set box, a small pamphlet style of book using the same rules and stats.  But the focus would obviously be on the illustrations.  This is more of a personal project more than a money making venture.

So, I was wondering what kind of legal issues might I possibly run into here, what constitutes copyright infringement in a case like this?  I remember plenty of knock of adventures being around in the 80's and they often used generic gaming terms, is that the biggest concern?  Are there terms or phrases that the copyright is held on?  

Like I said, it's more of a personal project and I was initially thinking just a hundred or so copies to pass out to friends and family, but other parties have expressed interest.  So, I'm just wondering if I decided to make a larger print run, how much trouble am I likely to get into and how to avoid it?

Any thoughts are appreciated.  Thanks!

*Edit: If I did not express it properly, this project is meant to be an homage to the game that means so much to me.   A fun way to flex my illustrative skills and give a nod to the Original D&D set.

  


Prolific Collector

Posts: 158
Joined: Jan 11, 2013
Last Visit: Jun 11, 2026

Post Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 11:06 am 
 

From what you described I do not see any copyright concerns.  It sounds like you are planning on mostly if not entirely original materials, even if inspired by, and if that is the case you should be covered under fair use.  There are 4 components to fair use that is typically used to decide infringement.  If you meet at least 2 of these you are usually good:

1   the purpose and character of your use
2   the nature of the copyrighted work
3   the amount and substantiality of the portion taken, and
4   the effect of the use upon the potential market.

#1 is in regards to if you are transforming the original work or not, which it sounds like you clearly are.
#2 is primarily regarding what you are copying.  Is it just a bunch of facts like the white pages or is there more to it (which their clearly is), and this criteria you do not meet.
#3 Concerns itself with if you are taking the heart of a work or not.  Are you copying the most important part and repurposing or less substantial bits like its look and feel and secondary information?  I would say you fit in this one.
#4 is how much your work affects the sales potential of what you are copying, and I would say you are affecting it little to none.

fyi, though I regularly work with copyright issues like this as part of my job I am not a lawyer, so take this with a grain of salt.  IMO you are pretty safe based on what you described.

 WWW  


Active Collector

Posts: 14
Joined: Jan 25, 2013
Last Visit: Jun 19, 2014

Post Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 12:16 pm 
 

Thanks for the reply, good info to know.  I guess my biggest concern is mimicking the original format and using similar terms (like "hit die" or "alignment"- I don't know what would be copyrighted terms?) that might get me into trouble.  I was trying to research similar situations and came across "The Arduin Trilogy" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arduin#The_Arduin_Trilogy where they were "served with a cease and desist order from the offices of TSR when it was found that the original publications of the Arduin books contained direct references to the Dungeons & Dragons gaming system".  That's the kind of instance I would like to avoid if possible.  I'm not really too concerned about it, but I figured if there was any obstacles that I should avoid, better to do it at the start.

  


Long-Winded Collector

Posts: 3549
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
Last Visit: May 16, 2026
Location: Wandering aimlessly on the 8th level down...

Post Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 12:30 pm 
 

Interesting project. Is it personal use or something that you'll market? Am I right thinking you want to draw MM in a digest size?? Is that how I've read it?

There are many here with good lawsuit and legal knowledge, there's also ex TSR/game designers here, so you'll have a fountain of knowledge to ask on.

Sounds interesting


Rolls a '3'

"Did I hit.....?"

  


Prolific Collector

Posts: 158
Joined: Jan 11, 2013
Last Visit: Jun 11, 2026

Post Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 12:34 pm 
 

Being served a cease and desist does not automatically mean you are doing something or wrong or illegal, it means they want you to stop and are at least threatening to take you to court over the issue which may or may not be ruled in their favor.  Though there are certainly times where the case is strongly in favor of the holder of the IP it is also commonly used as a strong arm tactic betting your work isn't worth the money it will cost to defend it in court regardless of its legality.  Some companies are just aggressive with their IP and you need to decide if it is worth you to start a project that may see such a letter come your way and what you will do if it does.

 WWW  


Active Collector

Posts: 14
Joined: Jan 25, 2013
Last Visit: Jun 19, 2014

Post Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 12:45 pm 
 

ashmire13 wrote:Interesting project. Is it personal use or something that you'll market? Am I right thinking you want to draw MM in a digest size?? Is that how I've read it?

There are many here with good lawsuit and legal knowledge, there's also ex TSR/game designers here, so you'll have a fountain of knowledge to ask on.

Sounds interesting


Well, I already spend a lot of my time drawing interesting creatures.   So yes, I thought why not collect them into a MM digest size, but I want it styled and formatted like the original white box editions.  Kinda like a lost or additional supplement.  I'm not sure if I would try and market it or just do a print run small enough for friends and those initially interested, that's kinda what I am trying to decide if it's worth the legal risk (being a broke and struggling artist and all).

nesbit37 wrote:Being served a cease and desist does not automatically mean you are doing something or wrong or illegal, it means they want you to stop and are at least threatening to take you to court over the issue which may or may not be ruled in their favor.  Though there are certainly times where the case is strongly in favor of the holder of the IP it is also commonly used as a strong arm tactic betting your work isn't worth the money it will cost to defend it in court regardless of its legality.  Some companies are just aggressive with their IP and you need to decide if it is worth you to start a project that may see such a letter come your way and what you will do if it does.


True, and noted.  Something I need to consider.

  


Long-Winded Collector

Posts: 3549
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
Last Visit: May 16, 2026
Location: Wandering aimlessly on the 8th level down...

Post Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 12:55 pm 
 

I'd be interested in a copy if you go down that road :)


Rolls a '3'

"Did I hit.....?"

  

User avatar

Sage Collector

Posts: 2589
Joined: Aug 02, 2006
Last Visit: Mar 11, 2023
Location: Seattle, WA

Post Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 1:34 pm 
 

Considering the volumes of third party material that came out back in the day, and in the resurgence of the last several years, you're unlikely to have a problem.  If you want to be extra safe, just don't put D&D or TSR on there.  I don't recall how other recent monster books have reworded (or not) terminology.  This is a good (free) one to compare to:  http://www.lulu.com/shop/the-first-edit ... 52854.html


Areas of interest/knowledge: Harn, WFRP, Ars Magica, anything BRP based such as CoC, Runequest, Pendragon and all their related games

  


Active Collector

Posts: 14
Joined: Jan 25, 2013
Last Visit: Jun 19, 2014

Post Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:07 pm 
 

ashmire13 wrote:I'd be interested in a copy if you go down that road :)

I figured a few people here might be interested, obviously it's just in the idea stage now but I could post something here when and if it comes to fruition (if that is allowed?)

TheHistorian wrote:Considering the volumes of third party material that came out back in the day, and in the resurgence of the last several years, you're unlikely to have a problem.  If you want to be extra safe, just don't put D&D or TSR on there.  I don't recall how other recent monster books have reworded (or not) terminology.  This is a good (free) one to compare to:  http://www.lulu.com/shop/the-first-edit ... 52854.html

Just reading the intro, that is pretty close to what I am looking at doing (except format).   Looks like I could also do some research into Open Game License.  Thanks for that!

  

User avatar

Verbose Collector
Acaeum Donor
Valuation Board

Posts: 1945
Joined: May 01, 2004
Last Visit: Aug 07, 2026
Location: Almost Lake Geneva, WI

Post Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:15 pm 
 

Do not duplicate word-for-word any of the materials in the original TSR works; rewrite thoroughly.
Include the Open Game License, and per section 8, designate all contents as Open Game Content.

That should handle everything.


My friends Dave & Gary made a quantum leap in entertainment. Remember them.

  


Active Collector

Posts: 14
Joined: Jan 25, 2013
Last Visit: Jun 19, 2014

Post Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 2:25 pm 
 

ashmire13 wrote:I'd be interested in a copy if you go down that road :)

I figured a few people here might be interested, obviously it's just in the idea stage now but I could post something here when and if it comes to fruition (if that is allowed?)

TheHistorian wrote:Considering the volumes of third party material that came out back in the day, and in the resurgence of the last several years, you're unlikely to have a problem.  If you want to be extra safe, just don't put D&D or TSR on there.  I don't recall how other recent monster books have reworded (or not) terminology.  This is a good (free) one to compare to:  http://www.lulu.com/shop/the-first-edit ... 52854.html

Just reading the intro, that is pretty close to what I am looking at doing (except format).   Looks like I could also do some research into Open Game License.  Thanks for that!

ExTSR wrote:Do not duplicate word-for-word any of the materials in the original TSR works; rewrite thoroughly.
Include the Open Game License, and per section 8, designate all contents as Open Game Content.

That should handle everything.

All text would be original, except for some of the terms used.  Looks like I have some OGC reading to do.

  

User avatar

Long-Winded Collector
JG Valuation Board

Posts: 3823
Joined: Jul 12, 2007
Last Visit: Dec 17, 2021

Post Posted: Fri Jan 25, 2013 4:21 pm 
 

Word of advice. Never ask openly on a public forum things you should be asking privately of someone who does copyright law professionally.


"You get more with a kind word and an excruciator than with just a kind word."

  


Prolific Collector

Posts: 123
Joined: Oct 06, 2005
Last Visit: May 22, 2017
Location: Cleveland, OH

Post Posted: Sat Jan 26, 2013 8:21 pm 
 

In the US, derivative works are usually covered under fair use laws, as long as they're not copies of originals. So you could, for example, draw your own picture of Elminster, as long as you weren't copying another artist's rendition.

Do you have an account on Deviant Art? I'd like to see your work.


"We were put on this Earth to fart around."
                            - Kurt Vonnegut

  


Active Collector

Posts: 14
Joined: Jan 25, 2013
Last Visit: Jun 19, 2014

Post Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 3:06 pm 
 

Well, like I mentioned, all original art/creatures/content, just use of similar terms and format perhaps.  Judging from responses I am much less worried about it, especially at the small run I was planning on doing it.

Don't have deviant art, but I am a published artist.  Just gonna keep it anonymous until I actually get the project finished.  I'll post something in the non-TSR thread when and if it gets finished.  Thanks for the responses!

  


Long-Winded Collector

Posts: 3549
Joined: Oct 10, 2006
Last Visit: May 16, 2026
Location: Wandering aimlessly on the 8th level down...

Post Posted: Sun Jan 27, 2013 3:20 pm 
 

squatront wrote:Well, like I mentioned, all original art/creatures/content, just use of similar terms and format perhaps.  Judging from responses I am much less worried about it, especially at the small run I was planning on doing it.

Don't have deviant art, but I am a published artist.  Just gonna keep it anonymous until I actually get the project finished.  I'll post something in the non-TSR thread when and if it gets finished.  Thanks for the responses!



Look forward to it


Rolls a '3'

"Did I hit.....?"

  


Prolific Collector

Posts: 111
Joined: Feb 03, 2009
Last Visit: Oct 25, 2021
Location: Plano, Texasd

Post Posted: Sun Feb 03, 2013 6:26 pm 
 

TheHistorian wrote:Considering the volumes of third party material that came out back in the day, and in the resurgence of the last several years, you're unlikely to have a problem.  If you want to be extra safe, just don't put D&D or TSR on there.  I don't recall how other recent monster books have reworded (or not) terminology.  This is a good (free) one to compare to:  http://www.lulu.com/shop/the-first-edition-society/monsters-of-myth/ebook/product-17452854.html


Look at the modules and the monster collections put out by Judges Guild.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judges_Guild for more on them, and, of course, their official website.  They are back, with Necromancer games.

 WWW  
Post new topic Reply to topic Page 1 of 1