benjoshua wrote:http://now.msn.com/now/0329-daily-texan-cartoonist.aspx

Oh my.

Great to see that the Daily Texan, greatest of all college rags, is keeping up the standards of inflammatory speech, although it's unfortunate the cartoonist got fired. The same thing happened to the cartoonist Chris Ware during his DT tenure in the late '80s, for offending the same minority group.

Also from the msn site above: "Killer shouts 'Go Cowboys!' as Texas executes him"

Sorry to keep bringing this up, but I had not seen this before.  To me, this gives me a little better insight why the police may have decided to not arrest Zimmerman afterward.  I assuming they talked to this "John" witness mentioned in the news report.

http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/se ... ltercation

I also saw the interview with Piers Morgan last night of George Zimmerman's brother, Robert.  The brother was intelligent and poised.  That doesn't mean that George Zimmerman is intelligent and/or poised, but it won't hurt his cause.

And for what it is worth, I still haven't made up my mind.  I am not convinced all the information about the case is available to the public or that enough info is available to sway me one way or the other.  

benjoshua wrote:
http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/se ... ltercation

And for what it is worth, I still haven't made up my mind.  I am not convinced all the information about the case is available to the public or that enough info is available to sway me one way or the other.  

I would think the witness who saw the shooter down on his back being beaten and calling for help might somehow be enough information.

Without the race angle, this case is over.

The serial killer, police wannabe, unstable personality, hothead, vigilanti, racist, mental patient, cowboy, egotist, "white hispanic" was on the ground being beaten by the sweet, harmless young man.

This case deserves sarcasm.

FormCritic wrote:

benjoshua wrote:then it is interesting to me that they have not already found enough information or evidence to at least bring in Zimmerman.  I would think they would bring him in as soon as they had enough to warrant a trial, or maybe not.

All the evidence has tended to exhonerate the white hispanic.

Are you sure about that? Or is it all the evidence you're choosing to pay attention to? Best I have figured is that there is a lot of confusion about what exactly happened. This one witness account certainly puts the two of them together at some point, but I wouldn't say it exonerates anyone, nor does it condemn anyone. Other accounts seem to contradict each other.

I would say the evidence thus far seems to make it a murky situation, in which case I go with the innocent until proven guilty doctrine.

I don't pretend to know the law in Florida, but from what I've heard discussed around this case, it doesn't surprise me that they haven't brought him in yet, it apparently takes considerable evidence to overcome stand your ground cases. So, it doesn't surprise me that even if law enforcement is intending to eventually arrest Zimmerman, that they haven't made a move yet.

EDIT:
This is a good summary of the case as I understand it now:
http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/30/justice/f ... index.html

Note that according this account Zimmerman was wearing the red jacket, which makes the witness' account previously linked of Trayvon being the one on top with the red jacket not jibe 100%. As I said, it's a murky case. I'm not sure either way what happened.

Busman wrote:Note that according this account Zimmerman was wearing the red jacket, which makes the witness' account previously linked of Trayvon being the one on top with the red jacket not jibe 100%. As I said, it's a murky case. I'm not sure either way what happened.

I'm not sure how you read these statements.  Here is my take:

I read this as a basic confirmation of Zimmerman's story:  Man on ground...beating...gunshot.  If Zimmerman had been sitting on top of Martin, delivering a beating, why shoot Martin?  Why injuries to Zimmerman's face? Why the injury to the back of Zimmerman's head?  (And remember, this is what the cops saw first hand, not what Zimmerman told them.)  What explains Zimmerman's broken nose?  

Zimmerman had already reported the incident to the police.  If he had wrestled Martin down, why not wait for the cops?

If it was Martin who was getting beaten, there ought to be injuries to his face and body.  Right?  Doesn't that seem obvious?  That is a job for the forensics people.  An autopsy has been performed.  If Martin had been beaten I think we would have heard that by now.  The fact that we have not is significant, one way or another.  (Although, as far as I know there have been no statements about either man's hands.  Did Martin's hands show signs of having beaten Zimmerman, or vice versa?  So I guess we'll find out.)

Martin was not walking down the street.  He was walking between buildings, which is the main reason Zimmerman thought he was suspicious.  Zimmerman says he was following Martin so he could report to police where he was.  

Overall, the statements tend to indicate strongly that Martin approached Zimmerman.  Something happened that put Zimmerman on the ground and inflicted injuries to him.  Zimmerman says it was a punch to the face from Martin.  This seems to match his broken nose and his other injuries tend to support his account of what happened next.

A shot was fired some seconds into the encounter.   (The lady who says she heard two shots is a nice example of how witness perceptions can be difficult to interpret, and shows how they can see and hear things that did not occur...which possibly applies to who was wearing the red clothing.).  Forensics (not rage) will determine whether that shot was fired up at an angle into Martin or downward.  I have a strong suspicion how that forensics report is going to turn out.

If Zimmerman was a cowboy who had his gun in hand to confront Martin, why did Martin feel OK with punching him?  Why did it take so long into the incident for Zimmerman to fire?  There are possible explanations, but Zimmerman's story seems to match what we know now.

If Martin was the man on his back when Zimmerman shot him, why was he lying face down afterwards?

The idea that it was Zimmerman on top of Martin just does not stand scrutiny based on what has been revealed so far, and I think an unbiased analysis supports this.

A witness said that Zimmerman was standing over Martin's prone body and that Zimmerman did not respond to the first query.  If you aren't viewing the case with prejudice, you might think of several reasons why Zimmerman might be more focused on Martin and not on what the neighbor lady was saying.  She wasn't the most important person present at that moment.  Her statement seems to carry meaning that just isn't there.

The witness' statement that Zimmerman was not trying to help Martin sounds like Zimmerman was somehow being mean or uncaring...unless you realize that her statement was clearly an answer to a question and not really a characterization of the whole situation.  I think the most likely interpretation is that Zimmerman was trying to figure out if Martin was really hurt, or dead.  Otherwise, why stand over him?  Why touch him at all?  When he realized the grim truth, and what it meant for him, he told the neighbor to call the police.  He told her to call the police...not an ambulance...because he knew Martin was beyond help, which was why he wasn't helping him.

Whether or not Zimmerman might have used a racial slur is immaterial.  The fact is, what he said is unintelligible.  If the CNN people had been able to get even a mild story angle from the tape, they'd have run with it...hard.  Given how almost any statement by anyone can be turned into a racial slur in today's climate, I doubt it happened at all.

The phone call with Martin's girlfriend absolutely confirms that Martin approached Zimmerman.  Zimmerman's statement that "he's got something in his hand" tends to support the possibility that what he saw was a cell phone.  The girlfriend's contention that Martin was "pushed" is groundless.  She doesn't know why the phone call cut off.  The one basic fact...that Martin approached Zimmerman and that he was angry about being followed...tends to support Zimmerman's story of what happened.  One possible question to ask the girlfriend might be, "If you thought Martin was being attacked, did you call anyone to help him?  Did you even try to call him back?"

Zimmerman has been characterized as being in hiding.  Clearly, he is not.  He is avoiding the media, but police and family know where he is.  Media people are prone to describing subjects as being "in hiding" or "missing" or "in seclusion" when they are not available for interviews.  In reality, it is smart for Zimmerman to stay silent and stay out of sight, and you know that is what his lawyer told him to do.

Today, there was media coverage of a camera showing Zimmerman being taken into the police station on the night of the shooting.  The Martin family lawyer has been allowed to make a number of ridiculous statements about the video...which have been reported as if they were news.

I heard one media person point out that Zimmerman did not appear to be staggering or walking funny or whatever.  This is entirely irrelevant to the shooting.  Zimmerman had already received first aid at the scene.  This was characterized in the media as "The cops cleaned him up."  You cannot argue both that Zimmerman was uninjured and that he his wounds were treated.

Isn't it strange how no one has come out and apologized for their statements that the police did nothing to interrogate or investigate Zimmerman after the incident?  Some people have gone so far as to say they took Zimmerman's story at face value, let him go and did nothing.  What's happening on that film?  What were they taking him into the police station for?  What were they doing?  

Initial characterizations of both Martin and Zimmerman have proven to be false or extremely flawed.

Work with it....do you see where all of this is going?

FormCritic wrote:This case deserves sarcasm.

Very well.

FormCritic wrote:
Martin was not walking down the street.  He was walking between buildings, which is the main reason Zimmerman thought he was suspicious.  Zimmerman says he was following Martin so he could report to police where he was.  

Ding ding ding.....NOT HIS JOB.  He's not a police officer, security guard, or any other duly appointed watchperson.  Walking between buildings? Who the fuck cares?  I've lived in dozens of apartments and neighborhoods and walked between dozens of buildings.  Anyone who thinks that's suspicious is either looking for something to be suspicious of or hasn't ever lived in a neighborhood.  What was Martin doing, casing the neighborhood?  Or trying to dodge someone who was following him.  Which is the more likely scenario? Best case scenario, Zimmerman catches a burglar redhanded breaking into an apartment or house, then has to draw down on him to prevent him from leaving.  Worst case? This right here.  This is the exact reason vigilantism is a double edged sword, it requires a regular person to make decisions he or she is not comfortable making, often with tragic results.  

On all the other points, I totally agree.  The case is being blown up to a Bonfire of the Vanities type story of the month before a natural disaster or mass murder drives it off the front page.

From the moment Zimmerman got OUT of his car armed after being told not to by authorities, the control was completely in his hands. Up to that point what he did might even be admirable (except for the unfortunate statements he made on the 911 call) because he was being a "good neighbor".  He has to take responsibility for everything that happened after this, because if he had remained in his car everyone would have gone home alive.  I don't think he's in any way blameless for his actions, although I do believe at this point people with agendas are stretching the circumstances to make a political point.

Zimmerman has been characterized as being in hiding.  Clearly, he is not.  He is avoiding the media, but police and family know where he is.  Media people are prone to describing subjects as being "in hiding" or "missing" or "in seclusion" when they are not available for interviews.  In reality, it is smart for Zimmerman to stay silent and stay out of sight, and you know that is what his lawyer told him to do.

Police did state after the events (rather arrogantly, I thought) that they had no idea where Zimmerman was because he wasn't being charged with a crime and they don't keep track of those people.  Maybe the were lying to protect him.  Frankly, if he's hiding I don't blame him.  It's probably best at this point that he not make a Richard Jewell-like media tour pleading his innocence.

Today, there was media coverage of a camera showing Zimmerman being taken into the police station on the night of the shooting.  The Martin family lawyer has been allowed to make a number of ridiculous statements about the video...which have been reported as if they were news.

The entire line of discussion in the media is ludicrous.  It is painfully obvious there is nothing to be discovered by a grainy security tape yet it's being interpreted like the freaking Zapruder film.

Isn't it strange how no one has come out and apologized for their statements that the police did nothing to interrogate or investigate Zimmerman after the incident?  Some people have gone so far as to say they took Zimmerman's story at face value, let him go and did nothing.  What's happening on that film?  What were they taking him into the police station for?  What were they doing?  

Since none of us have any idea whether the interview was a friendly one filled with lightly tossed softballs, or a down and dirty old school interrogation, I can't say whether or not their investigation means a thing.  It does appear there were some unanswered questions, and that the police were somewhat flummoxed about what the Stand Your Ground law would and wouldn't excuse.

Also I think the circumstances surrounding this would make Zimmerman a big loser in a civil suit...any lawyer for the Martin family is going to focus on one thing and one one, why did Zimmerman get out of the car when it wasn't his job to do so.   Hell I thought Bernie Goetz had a better case, and he lost his civil suit (but never paid a dime of it).

Mike B.

Nogrod wrote:NBC to do an internal investigation regarding editing of 911 call

washingtonpost.com/blogs/erik-wemple/po ... _blog.html

NBC played the conversation on the "Today Show" as: "This guy looks like he's up to no good.  He looks black."

The unabridged version is:

Zimmerman: This guy looks like he's up to no good. Or he's on drugs or something. It's raining and he's just walking around, looking about.
Dispatcher: OK, and this guy — is he black, white or Hispanic?
Zimmerman: He looks black.

I hate the news media and they owe this guy, and their viewers, an apology.

Zach

Every single personal interaction I've had with the news, when I knew the true facts of something on the news, has shown that they do this sort of thing all the time. Not 100% of the time, but they choose shock/entertainment over facts time and time again.

Those are good points Busman.