Not to derail (too much) but I'm surprised that WotC hasn't tried to split the baby and offer a new 4e for the masses and a (mildly) revised "30th Anniversery" edition of the 1e books for those people who would want them.  Seems to me they're missing a market (albeit a smaller one than exists for 4e).  I know there are some issues with respect to Gygax's copyright on the manuals but with money to be made by all parties you'd think they'd work that out with a nice royalty for GG and nice profits for WotC.

I've watched the video clips for the new 4E release. It just all seems so terribly sad, it just isn't gaming as I remember it.

And there, I guess, is the point. Gaming as I remember it, through rose tinted spectacles, had a group of teenagers sitting around for hours on end, interacting, rolling dice, arguing ,laughing, drinking coke etc etc.

This just isn't the way it is now - times have changed, and WOTC (and presumably a lot of the industry in general) are simply not aiming their product at me any more.
Would we have played D&D on computers back in the day, if we could have (I remember my 48K ZX Spectrum with a smile!)? Yes, we probably would have.
Would we have connected to the internet, and used these cool looking, all singing, nonsense tools? Probably, yes.
Would we have done everything we could have to stay as cutting-edge in our chosen hobby as we could? Again, Yes.

The difference is, back in the day, the place to get all this stuff, fluff and crap was not on your computer, it was in games stores, and in the classified ads of White Dwarf. The amount of pocket money spent by myself and my gaming buddies on rulebooks, box sets ad-ons, fanzines, magazines was phenomenal, but looking back was probably all quite unnecesary - then, as now, all you needed was a core rules set and some dice (dice not as essential now!), and a couple of mates. All of this Insider stuff and online product etc is just fluff aimed at gamer geeks - 2007 gamer geeks - just as all the fanzines etc were aimed at gamer geeks - 1982 gamer geeks or whatever.

The times they are changing.

My point is that almost all of the things WOTC do will pass me by(except FR books which I will buy!), but WOTC do not care - they are not including me and my type (that's you lot )  in the new world order.
But, what happens if one of my sons finally says to me "Dad, there's a games club at school and I've joined - You were right D&D is the best thing in the world, ever - and can you buy me a 4E Players Handbook?".
Do I tell him " Fuck no - here's a proper PH/MM/DMG, take it to school and tell allthose 12 year olds they are deluded and these books are the future!" - No, I smile, buy the book, and hope he gets as many happy hours out of gaming as I did.  

sorry this was a bit rambling and pointless - just try and see my point!  

Deadlord39 wrote:Goat, I can pick a different nickname for you if I knew what g026r meant. Shit, I don't even know how it's pronounced! I just went with what I had.....

I think he likes it Frank ... The avatar is a nice touch.

To answer the questions: it means nothing, and it's pronounced like a series of letters and numbers.  It's just a username that's never taken anywhere, hence why I use it.

(I don't mind the goat thing either; it's fun for the time being, and that's all that matters.)

- Nothing could hurt me more than seeing that poor poor goat abused in that way.  [/quote]
fixed. goat is gone now but was tasty ;>

could be challenge with 4e goats but think he might prefer it were eaten

88888 post get btw

Hrm.  Must have missed the lack of conversion bit.  Got a link?

Contrarian wrote:
I don't know about that.  WOTC said they're not offering rules for converting 3E characters to 4E (and that lack of conversion rules is one of the RPGA's justifications for killing Living Greyhawk).  That sorta sounds like there's a big change in the rules somewhere that would make conversion too difficult for WOTC to bother.

Not that I really care that much, but I've already started to tell 3E fans "Just wait a couple of years, and you'll know what us 1E guys feel like."  I'm a jerk like that sometimes.

Hey I'm a jerk like that too.   My local game dealer had no idea 4th ed is on the horizon and he's been hopping mad, he and his players jumped to 3 and then 3.5 and continually diss anything written before 1999 or so.  Can't wait to break the news to him tomorrow that it's time for HIM to start over and be ignored by WOTC...

Mike B.

Contrarian wrote:
I don't have a link, because it's something I heard with my own ears at the annual RPGA meeting Saturday.  They said it several times while trying to justify the end of Living Greyhawk. (Then they foolishly undercut themselves by admitting that even if WOTC did issue conversion rules, the RPGA wouldn't use them because the 2E/3E conversion went poorly for the Network.)

As for whether 4E is evolutionary or revolutionary, I can only point to the "Design & Development" articles already on WOTC's site:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drdd/20070816b

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drdd/20070816a

I suggest everyone read what they're doing to fighters and demihumans, and decide for themselves how big a change 4E is going to be.

Contrarian;

I don't feel like signing into the site to see the content; could you summarize a little about what these changes are going to be?

Mike B.