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D&D version 4.0--what do YOU think it's going to be like
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Xaxaxe
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Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 6:21 pm

Proven fact: If you're over 13 years of age, looking at Ain't It Cool News actually makes you stupider.

That place peaked in 1998. Fat Man Harry needs to find a new gig.

Plaag
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Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 6:22 pm

http://www.aintitcool.com/node/35776

This is part 1 btw

ShaneG.

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killjoy32
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Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 5:56 am

Xaxaxe wrote:Proven fact: If you're over 13 years of age, looking at Ain't It Cool News actually makes you stupider.

That place peaked in 1998. Fat Man Harry needs to find a new gig.

i use loads of other sites too, just happened across it there last night is all. was looking for info on something else and chanced it tbh.

Al

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JohnGaunt
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Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 9:59 am

Wired article (well, four small paragraphs on 4E) with links to 4E character sheets. Female half-elf warlock, 28 hit points . . . at first level???

. . . http://blog.wired.com/underwire/2008/02 ... -at-n.html

Slashdot thread containing a small amount of discussion about the above link.

. . . http://games.slashdot.org/games/08/03/01/031248.shtml

Badmike
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Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 12:16 pm

killjoy32 wrote:just spotted this...

http://www.aintitcool.com/node/35799

Congrats to WOTC. It sounds like they have finally made D&D into a video game.

Mike B.

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Deadlord
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Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 1:47 pm

They already made it into a video game. It's called 3rd Edition.

If you hit a Rowsdower, you get to keep it.

Plaag
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Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 4:24 pm

http://www.aintitcool.com/node/35811

Part 3

ShaneG.

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Plaag
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Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 4:38 pm

http://picasaweb.google.com/gertiebarde ... cterSheets

ShaneG.

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Badmike
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Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 5:00 pm

Plaag wrote:http://www.aintitcool.com/node/35811

Part 3

ShaneG.

The guy writing the article is a moron. I'd call him that but I don't want to alienate any non-4E loving morons that might troll by here.

Seriously, you could, line for line, rebutt every single thing this idiot said, it's so lame and stupid. All he does is wax on and on about how "Kewl" the new game is and basically everything he says makes the game sound like a video game without the video or the game. And I love the part where he says something like "If you loved 1st edition, you'll love 4E". WTF? Why not just play 1st ed you tard? Geez.

Here is a sampling of his "writing":

But my favorite addition so far is minions. These are super weak monsters that amount to an average of 4 monsters to a character of equal level. But this by no means is to say that they don't pose any kind of threat. Quite often they can do much more damage when attacking en masse. These are your zombie hordes or your weak demon spawn and the like. Our very first game began in a tavern, with a brawl (yes, the clichÃ©) but was interrupted by a woman bursting through the door screaming. Two zombies rushed in after her and tore her apart. Our brave fighter rushed forward, hacked them to pieces and threw open the door ready for 2 or 3 more. Only to discover 2 dozen zombies shambling toward her.

Overkill? Not in 4E. 24 Zombie Rotters are a standard encounter for 6 level 1 PCs. You don't HAVE to run minion fights that large, but man are they a good time. They make your PCs feel highly effective as they drop zombie after zombie beneath their feet, but also prove tactically challenging as they have to fight off swarms with completely different tactics. It also lets you have a little fun by replacing several of the minions with a regular fighter type of the same monster. Why are there only 13 zombies this time? Because one of them is a level 3 nasty. Guess which one it is before it eats your cleric.

Most of your time as Dungeon master will be spent on two things: planning the story of your game and planning the monster and tactic selection. It really is challenging. 4E fights really have a different feel. It's not about running across some random fight anymore. It's about planning, it's about strategy, it's about the fun or frustration of the big beat down. You are encouraged to get exotic -- and that equals fun for all.

He didnt say one single thing there that I don't ALREADY do in my own games. As a matter of fact, after every line, just insert "....like I've always done it" and it makes even more sense. Such as:

Most of your time as Dungeon master will be spent on two things: planning the story of your game and planning the monster and tactic selection...like I've always done it. It really is challenging....like I've always done it. 4E fights really have a different feel....like I've always done it. It's not about running across some random fight anymore...like I've never done it anyway. It's about planning, it's about strategy, it's about the fun or frustration of the big beat down...like I've always done it. You are encouraged to get exotic -- and that equals fun for all...like I've always done it.

I encourage anyone thinking about purchasing this abomination to read this three part series....and decide whether or not you're just a lot better sticking to whatever version you currently use.

Also have to shout out to the part where he smugly points out that ANY action that a PC can take is covered in the rules....so a DM can ALWAYS adjucate based on a mechanic. Once again, "like I've always done it". Anyone who is a DM here that let themselves be stuck on a rules point like the example he gives (a pc wants to kick a table over onto some foes so the DM has an exact rules for it) should turn in his books, dice and maps and buy a set of Candyland. Sheesh.

BTW some of the comments afterwards are just hilarious.

Mike B.

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killjoy32
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Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 5:13 pm

totally agree with Mike.

while i provided the link originally, i didnt even read the thing (until now).

my thought is they STILL won't get it til prb 54E of D&D. you dont NEED rulebooks. its all about how the DM deals with the game.

its all about the story and how a DM portrays it to the PCs.

the perfect example is the Tegel game i ran last year. ask any of the guys how often we looked at the rules or discussed them or whatever. you just dont. anyone with common sense can just make something fit, so the story can continue.

i just wish they would take some more note of that. anyone who sits there and blurbs out rule after rule during the game is just a muppet.

i appreciate what they are trying to do, but i dont see how it can succeed. sure i am certain that the thing will take off and folk will flock to it, but as frank keeps pointing out, i think it will be just a glorified video game.

Al

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sauromatian
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Posted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 3:56 am

When AD&D 2nd ed. was about to come out, I started designing how I thought it should be, which evolved into a Character-Sheet-Is-the-RPG project that's still ongoing today.

What the hey, guess I can start all over & pontificate upon what I think 4th ed. should be, even though inevitably it will be something completely different:

Basic Set- The starter for both the RPG & the minis game. WotC sold an edition a few years ago which sort of addressed this by including the stat cards for the minis. I think it would be sound marketing policy to go all the way. Whether the consumer buys it for the minis game or for the RPG, they are introduced to the other. Not much material would have to be added to the contents of either to make it work.

Monster Manual- Already includes a selection of demons, complete it by including a basic selection of deities. Every edition since 1977 has devoted too much space for too few monsters- go back to four entries per page. The original MM has so many paragraph-long descriptions from so many sources that it's an interesting read.

Players Handbook- Above all, make this volume interesting to read. Too often it becomes sheer drudgery to sift through it while building a character. Nearly every other RPG I've ever read does a better job of this than D&D has. The others give an idea to the player of the world & society they'll inhabit, becoming entertaining for that reason.

Dungeon Masters Guide- Take advantage of the best known settings to create a new composite world. After telling the reader how to create a city, give a map & NPCs for Greyhawk, Blackmoor for a village, a few Tomb of Horrors encounters for traps, & so on. Supply enough detail for DMs enough to work with, to flesh out for their own campaigns or as quickie fill-ins.

The rules in general- Keep the three core volumes on a level of simplicity similar to the Rules Cyclopedia. There will be plenty of opportunity for complexity in the supplements. Avoid duplication of info between core books. For instance, the PHB could contain a minimum of races & classes. Players wishing more customization [a grey elf, half-orc, or evil gnoll ranger] could be referred to the MM for more races, & the DMG for more character types.

Badmike
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Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 1:09 pm

The news is out! Paizo has announced the Pathfinder RPG, a stand-alone game based on the 3.5 SRD that'll be going through a year and a half of public playtesting, after which it'll debut at Gen Con 2009. Our goal for the Pathfinder RPG is to keep the spirit of the OGL movement alive and create a set of rules that evolve the 3.5 SRD. More importantly, the Pathfinder RPG is completely backwards compatible with the mountains of game books that everyone already owns. The game is being designed by our Lead Designer Jason Bulmahn with assistance from many members of the Paizo staff, and if you haven't seen the first release of the public Alpha yet, you should head over to paizo.com/pathfinderRPG and check it out! Let us know what you think, what's cool, what's broken, what should stay and what should go away. And spread the word! Let your friends know about the public playtest of the Pathfinder RPG to help us keep Pathfinder alive for years to come.

What does this mean for the other Pathfinder products?

For the immediate future, not much changes. We're already well into design, using the 3.5 rules, for the Second Darkness Adventure Path that debuts with Pathfinder #13 in August (Greg Vaughn's map turnover for Riddleport turned out particularly nice, by the way!). After that, in February of 2009, we'll be starting up the fourth Pathfinder Adventure Path (which, at the time I'm writing this, will quite likely be moving out of Varisia and into devil-haunted Cheliax, and just might involve a bit of good old-fashioned "tame the wilderness" stuff), which will also use the 3.5 rules. The Pathfinder Modules, Pathfinder Chronicles, and Pathfinder Companion lines will also continue to use 3.5 rules during this period.

Then, in August 2009, all of the Pathfinder products will switch from the 3.5 SRD to the Pathfinder RPG as we begin Adventure Path 5 in Pathfinder #25. If we've done our job right, you'll be able to play the Adventure Path using the current 3.5 rules or the new rules for the Pathfinder RPGâ€”the transition should be pretty fast and simple as a result. It has to be, really, because I've already got lots of ideas bumping around in my head about what that Adventure Path is going to be about, and I don't want to spend too much time getting used to new rules when I could be spending that time on that campaign's plot. Will it focus on the destruction brought to Golarion by the advent of the genie wars? Will your PCs get hired by Ameiko to go on an expedition from Sandpoint over the north pole and down into Tian Xia? What nation would be the best one to hit with the Polymorph Plague? Will it be our first direct sequel to a prior Adventure Pathâ€”could we see the Return of the Runelords? Whatever it ends up being about, one thing's for sure: we'll still be presenting the same exciting Adventure Paths and support material for the Pathfinder Chronicles campaign setting you've come to expect from us.

We're also incredibly excited to announce that we're launching the Pathfinder Society organized play mega-campaign, and that we're hiring Nicolas Logue to run it. Nick has been a longtime contributor to Paizo, and his natural skills as an organizer and adventure-writer make him the ideal candidate to helm Paizo's first foray into the world of organized play. We think you'll be very excited about the Pathfinder Society Scenariosâ€”check out what we have planned for the first four on the Pathfinder Society page! Additional details about the Pathfinder Society will be revealed in the coming months via the Pathfinder Society page and the Paizo Blog.

Well, what do you think....genius move, or bound to fail? Personally, I think it's a great idea and I wish them luck. It would be hilarious if the 3/3.5 crowd was able to carve a huge niche out of the gamers who either don't want to switch, or become disillusioned with 4E (notice the 2009 release date, plenty of time to see if people love or hte 4E, plus Paizo will be publishing 3.5 compatible stuff all the while).

It would have been very interesting to see what would have happened had WOTC OGL'd 1st and 2nd edition and allowed products to be published with this ruleset.

Mike B.

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mellmorranth
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Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 2:33 pm

Badmike wrote:
Well, what do you think....genius move, or bound to fail? Personally, I think it's a great idea and I wish them luck. It would be hilarious if the 3/3.5 crowd was able to carve a huge niche out of the gamers who either don't want to switch, or become disillusioned with 4E (notice the 2009 release date, plenty of time to see if people love or hte 4E, plus Paizo will be publishing 3.5 compatible stuff all the while).

It would have been very interesting to see what would have happened had WOTC OGL'd 1st and 2nd edition and allowed products to be published with this ruleset.

Mike B.

i can't seriously consider a debate about whether 1st or 3rd edition is better because the games really aren't all that compatable.

i don't mean techincally. i mean in how they are run.

1st edition lends itself to a very creative and quick-witted gamemaster being able to run a game with little planning.

3rd edition requires a lot of overhead (most of which really isn't reusable) for all combat.

mike says he puts all of that planning into 1st edition anyway. but i don't think he does it in npc generation. more likely he does it in storytelling or battle tactics which is where it belongs (imho).

i love both systems for what they are. i love the ease of play of the first system (and maybe the nastalgia) and i love the (relative) consistency of the 3rd edition (and the ability to be able to look up most rules without making up house rules on the fly).

all that said - i hear killjoy32's comment "you dont NEED rulebooks. its all about how the DM deals with the game. " and it screams "powers and perils". there's a system that was intentionally designed with the idea that the GM is going to have to make frequent rulings based on judgement. if your GM has a commanding presence (and common sense) a game like that runs very smoothly.

if you never heard of powers and perils, take five minutes to wiki it. you'll be glad you did.

Xaxaxe
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Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 2:46 pm

Badmike wrote:Well, what do you think....genius move, or bound to fail?

No idea on the eventual fate of this project, although I'll add that at least Paizo produces professional-looking, high-quality stuff. That can't hurt.

What I think is most interesting is that gaps are appearing in 4e's armor long before the product is even available to consumers. Just think back to the summer of 2000, when 3e was released: everybody was onboard (even Steve Jackson Games had a brief fling with 3e before remembering that it was probably smarter just to support GURPS), everybody was excited to see where things like the SRD and OGL would lead D&D, and there was a general sense of anticipation in the air.

I'm not seeing any of that in 2008 for 4e.** Maybe it will begin to build later in the year, but, so far, 4e seems to have landed with a thud.

+++++

**Part of the problem is no physical magazines. Both Dragon and Dungeon were put to very good use in the year leading up to 3e; they really helped build the hype. Throwing up a bunch of crap articles on a crap website and calling it "Dragon" is just not the same thing at all.

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Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 6:19 pm

Great move by Paizo's part and I may try to see about play testing these new rules in some form. main reason I think is well besides the poll they conducted and the responses to the forums that few were switching, the damn new ogl (called something new just can't remember) has not been released to anyone yet. How are companies supposed to create something for GenCon or even Free RPGday if WotC hasn't allowed anyone to look at the rules. ((course my theory is that they do not want what happened at the beginning of 3.0 where monster books and adventures came out the same day)).
But back on Paizo's part to keep this 3.5 going: they do have the outlet for 4.0 still open with the Necromancer Games partnership and so can see how that all plays out. Lisa Stevens just seems to know the business module though, having small modules, 'magazine-type' subscriptions and some of the best writers and artists and sticking with what has worked.

ShaneG.

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Busman
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Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 7:27 pm

I think it's a misstep if they make it anything more than a bridge to 4e. They are rewriting and modernizing rules. Unless they are supremely talented it's going to be very hard to make it so that things translate very easily between 3.5 and PF. In which case you've isolated both the 4e people AND the 3.5 people, which is the worst case scenario.

Now, if they have this going and jump fully on board 4e adventure paths once the GSL is available, then it's possible to get the best case scenario, which is being seen as fully supporting 4e AND having launched their own RPG in Pathfinder.

They are certainly riding on the high of WHOOO! it's not's not WotC! and it's not 4e! and WotC screwed Paizo with Dragon and Dungeon! But, I think that sentiment will fade reasonably quickly after June.

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Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 7:34 pm

It will be backward compatible with the 3.5 rules..so anything they write regarding Pathfinder RPG can still be played using the WotC 3.x rules. Also they are keeping everything 3.5 till August 2009 when they do intend to fully jump into their rule set (Pathfinder #25 iirc). For now it is just Alpha and then Beta testing projects. Nothing in print, some scenarios for the Society - (play testing section/group) will be PDF.

ShaneG.

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copycat
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Posted: Thu Mar 20, 2008 7:59 pm

Not having the "GSL" available is ridiculous. I have heard some rumors, some not good ones, as to why... but, that's all I will say. Its very much like the days of 2000 and the start of d20... take it for who you will.

Oh, and Paizo's "move" is so shocking. Yeah.

Those who can, don't. Those who should not, do.

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