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They just don't get it, do they?
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gkramer
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Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 12:51 pm

Interesting reading all of this as I stopped playing at 2nd ed level.

Bottom line, a company needs to stay in business - so evolution (i.e., new editions) are a given.

Gary H. Kramer

Cushionsnbeans
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Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 1:11 pm

FormCritic wrote:
I am not understanding the concept of "backward compatible." Several people have mentioned it so far.

A gnoll from the OD&D Holmes Basic Set could show up in 3.5 and take a swing without a problem. The numbers are still the same.

Fair enough but they are making a lot of noise re the online character generation etc.

My thoughts are (and I stand to be corrected

) that I doubt it will give you the option to create a 1st ed character (obviously David thats why its called 4e :roll:

)

Ok I'll shut up now :oops:

g026r
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Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 1:20 pm

Cushionsnbeans wrote:My thoughts are (and I stand to be corrected ) that I doubt it will give you the option to create a 1st ed character (obviously David thats why its called 4e )

I doubt you'll be corrected. After all, there isn't a way to electronically verify what books you own (and therefore what classes, monsters, etc., to make available) and even if there was: WotC likely sees no reason to support a system for which they received no money in sales.

Though they probably could make some money by charging the "nominal fee" to make available the various 1st or 2nd ed. books for those people who won't use 4e. (Of course, that then runs into the problem that they probably wouldn't want to make 3/3.5e character creation rules available while they're trying to move as many people as possible from 3/3.5e to 4e.)

JohnGaunt
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Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 2:08 pm

FormCritic wrote:A gnoll from the OD&D Holmes Basic Set could show up in 3.5 and take a swing without a problem. The numbers are still the same.

Earlier he wrote:15) <*snip*> If that doesn't give you pause to consider then pack a lunch and bring your rules lawyer. The battle is gonna take a while!

The OD&D gnoll could show up, but could he take a simple swing? Would he even be allowed through the dungeon entrance without a Challenge Rating/Encounter Rating/whatever it is? And if he were to fight in 3E, he doesn't have anything but the most basic of numbers --- no feats/skills/whatever they are.

Magelin
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Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 2:11 pm

The only thing about 4E that has me excited is the virtual gaming table...I'm just waiting to see how that all shakes out. On the WoTC promo videos, they've got some excellent video of how the table will work - complete with a dice roller, as well as a DMs set of tools and virtual miniatures.

While I'm not planning on moving ahead to 4E rules-wise, I think it would be a smart thing for WoTC to do to make the "virtual gaming table" as generic as possible. For instance, you could lose the rules set and just move the miniatures around the table - that way, those of us who have already been playing (2E) online can add a nice aspect to our games, and WoTC can make some money too.

I would happily pay $10+ each month for the use of a "virtual table," complete with minis, dice rollers, and DM tools...even if it is through something as stupid-sounding as "GleeMax"... :roll:

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otherworld
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Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 2:11 pm

JohnGaunt wrote:The OD&D gnoll could show up, but could he take a simple swing? Would he even be allowed through the dungeon entrance without a Challenge Rating/Encounter Rating/whatever it is? And if he were to fight in 3E, he doesn't have anything but the most basic of numbers --- no feats/skills/whatever they are.

An OD&D gnoll wouldn't be allowed within a mile of a 3E dungeon without a risk assessment!

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Badmike
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Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 2:12 pm

FormCritic wrote:
I am not understanding the concept of "backward compatible." Several people have mentioned it so far.

A gnoll from the OD&D Holmes Basic Set could show up in 3.5 and take a swing without a problem. The numbers are still the same.

Actually it doesn't match up well. I've redone a few 3E modules and it's difficult to get a hold on just what level characters it should be made for. The extra feats, powers, abilities, stat blocks for the monsters, not to mention templates, are sometimes confusing. Remember in earlier editions a monster is a monster, with no abilites or classes. Exactly what would a fiendish lizardman with monkish abilities and various feats be in 1st edition, for example? Not knocking either system, just saying it takes quite a lot of fiddling about to make the newer module backwards compatible, particularly when it comes to the "boss" monster that typically in most 3E products has quite a few powers, abilities and templates grafted onto them.
Ironically, it's much easier to convert a classic module to 3E, just take the monster/character and convert, adding or subtracting whatever abilities make it equal to the level you want.

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Badmike
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Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 2:15 pm

Center_Stage_Hobbies wrote:The only thing about 4E that has me excited is the virtual gaming table...I'm just waiting to see how that all shakes out. On the WoTC promo videos, they've got some excellent video of how the table will work - complete with a dice roller, as well as a DMs set of tools and virtual miniatures.

While I'm not planning on moving ahead to 4E rules-wise, I think it would be a smart thing for WoTC to do to make the "virtual gaming table" as generic as possible. For instance, you could lose the rules set and just move the miniatures around the table - that way, those of us who have already been playing (2E) online can add a nice aspect to our games, and WoTC can make some money too.

I would happily pay $10+ each month for the use of a "virtual table," complete with minis, dice rollers, and DM tools...even if it is through something as stupid-sounding as "GleeMax"...

Gaming online is getting easier and easier, with the only slight drawback being the lack of minis/visuals (or ease to view them) in the gaming experience. The virtual gaming table is an intriguing idea, i only hope it is not edition specific.

Mike B.

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FormCritic
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Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 2:21 pm

Badmike wrote:Ironically, it's much easier to convert a classic module to 3E, just take the monster/character and convert, adding or subtracting whatever abilities make it equal to the level you want.

You just read the monster stats from the 3.5 Monster Manual and go from there. Challenge rating can be a key clue, but I usually just estimate the relative skill of my players and power of their characters.

Then again, I have never really been a module kind of guy.

I would not say that a gnoll from OD&D would be equal to a gnoll of 3.5. I would just say that the math is exactly the same. It isn't like crossing over from a percentile or d6 game to a d20 game. The gnoll steps up, swings, rolls a d20, reads the result versus armor class and hits or misses.

The feats, stat bonuses and the like are useful, but the core math...the "engine" if you will...is the same.

I would be disappointed if 4.0 abandoned the basic math engine and six stat blocks for a different system. From what I heard, listening to all I could stand of the GenCon announcement meeting, the core of the rules will stay the same.

"But I have watched the dragons come, fire-eyed, across the world."

deimos3428
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Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 3:04 pm

gkramer wrote:Interesting reading all of this as I stopped playing at 2nd ed level.

Bottom line, a company needs to stay in business - so evolution (i.e., new editions) are a given.

Why is that, exactly? I've heard this argument over and over since the announcement of 4E, and I"m just not (literally) buying it.

Where is this theory coming from? There's six billion people on the planet. If the materials were of higher quality, they'd attract more customers. There's no need to "repackage" the same rules and sell them over and over again to the same customers.

JohnGaunt
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Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 3:49 pm

deimos3428 wrote:Why is that, exactly? I've heard this argument over and over since the announcement of 4E, and I"m just not (literally) buying it.

Where is this theory coming from? There's six billion people on the planet. If the materials were of higher quality, they'd attract more customers. There's no need to "repackage" the same rules and sell them over and over again to the same customers.

Of those six billion humans, perhaps a few million play Dungeons and Dragons 3.x. Besides MMORPGs, sports, and cocaine, what product can get all six billion humans addicted?

People get bored or tired of the same game and want to try something different. Game companies want to make the next smash hit to continue making money. Games themselves need rules fixes and facelifts. All of these mean that a new product will eventually come out.

Are the different versions of D&D needed?

- OD&D booklets introduce roleplaying.
- OD&D boxed sets tighten up OD&D booketls.
- 1E tightens up OD&D.
- 2E tightens up 1E.
- 3E rewrites 2E.
- 4E simplifies or rewrites 3E.

None are perfect gaming systems as written on paper. Or maybe each is good enough for the people that liked it, and that makes it perfect for them.

deimos3428
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Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 4:11 pm

JohnGaunt wrote:Of those six billion humans, perhaps a few million play Dungeons and Dragons 3.x. Besides MMORPGs, sports, and cocaine, what product can get all six billion humans addicted?

If a lousy game like WoW can do it, D&D can. If WotC would invest the money into building a quality product and a skilled marketing team, the game would both sell and grow. Unfortunately, they have no vision.

Frank M. et al. did it in 1984 -- that's when most of the general public saw the game on the shelves -- and the gaming industry exploded soon thereafter with new players. While we love the older covers, the AD&D game "took off" with the orange spines. It can happen again, if they'd stop looking at the dollar signs over their customers heads. Don't blame me that they won't.

Are the different versions of D&D needed?

No. Not remotely. The game's been refined far more than any other game it's age. Reprintings, sure. The books wear out, and new players want their own copies. Incidentally, to my knowledge the original booklets were never sold unboxed.

Cattledog
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Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 6:47 pm

I think it would be really cool if WOTC/Hasbro decided to hire a few "edition" experts to produce just a few quality products for 1st, 2nd, and 3/3.5 each year. Wouldn't have to be a whole lot of stuff or a big staff just three or four designers with experience with the particular edition. Just a very small consideration to the many players of previous editions. It would help sell all those obsolete books as well since the previous edition won't actually be defunct.

Oh to dream...

Hmm, no, I don't have a gambling problem, I'm winning, and winning is not a problem. That's like saying Michael Jordan has a basketball problem, or Def Leppard has an awesomeness problem. So why don't y'all pour some sugar on that?

Xaxaxe
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Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 7:19 pm

deimos3428 wrote:Why is that, exactly? I've heard this argument over and over since the announcement of 4E, and I"m just not (literally) buying it.

I'm with you, strange lemur guy. I don't know where this logic comes from, and it's certainly not a "given."

If I'm understanding it correctly, there seems to be some sort of argument that WotC and/or other gaming companies must constantly "evolve or die." But, even if I were to completely buy into that theory, wouldn't it mean that WotC would be releasing an entirely new RPG system now instead of just adding another refinement to an overly-refined system?

Not that they'll ever do that, of course. It's far easier to stick the D&D logo on a bunch of new crap and call it "Dungeons & Dragons." That's not evolution; that's a cash-grab.

mordrin
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Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 9:02 pm

Why do they financially need to produce new editions?

It's really simple

Out of all the rules versions out there (ODD, B/E/C/M/I, 1E, 2E, 3E, 3.5E, 4E), how many of us only own rule books from one version?
There's your answer.

By updating it, they can re-sell the 'same' item to you (well, many players, anyway) over and over.

Suppose there was only a version A of an RPG, and the company has 500k players. Then the company comes out with version B. Over a few years, 200k new players discover the game and buy the current version B, of course. Meanwhile, out of the old pool of version A players, some buy the new rules - because they're curious, because they like what they've heard about changes, because they found a new group to play with and that group plays version B, or maybe just because their old group wants to try something fresh and new - leading to another 200k in sales.
The company just sold 400k new editions, whereas if they'd just kept selling version A, they only would have notched 200k copies sold to the new players* and 0 to the old players who already owned it.

* and probably considerably less than that, because plenty of the original 500k would have stopped playing and given theirs away or sold it much cheaper than new at bookstores and eBay.

deimos3428
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Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 9:52 pm

Xaxaxe wrote:I'm with you, strange lemur guy. I don't know where this logic comes from, and it's certainly not a "given."

Thanks, Cubist Holmes Rulebook Man. (Perhaps we should form some sort of league for extraordinary gentlemen such as ourselves...but what to call it? Gadzooks.)

I was beginning to wonder if I was out on a limb there, no lemur-related pun intended.

deimos3428
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Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 10:11 pm

mordrin wrote:Suppose there was only a version A of an RPG, and the company has 500k players. Then the company comes out with version B. Over a few years, 200k new players discover the game and buy the current version B, of course. Meanwhile, out of the old pool of version A players, some buy the new rules - because they're curious, because they like what they've heard about changes, because they found a new group to play with and that group plays version B, or maybe just because their old group wants to try something fresh and new - leading to another 200k in sales.

Ok, I'm going to assume you're making those numbers up. (The numbers I'm using are definitely made up.)

If the same company invested the same amount of money in aggressively promoting and supporting version A, they could easily have 2-3 times as many new customers as they would with version B. Version B is an unknown commodity. It's generally also far cheaper to reprint the existing version than to start an entirely new publishing process. Add perhaps another 20k or so existing customers who might need to replace their books, as well. Not to mention any new Version A supplements, which your now much larger fanbase will also likely buy.

The current WotC strategy is a "grab and dump" approach. (Grab the money, dump the customers.) That's very short-term thinking. If I were a holder of WotC's stock, I'd be outraged. Granted, they're being propped up by their parent corporation, so the affect on Hasbro shareholders is negligible.

SH60B
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Posted: Tue Aug 28, 2007 10:27 pm

I'll have a hard time with 4E, just becuase of the $ I have forked out for 3.5 sourcebooks....

I'm thinking my gaming group will remain 3.5 for a long while.

SH60B's quote of the weeK!!

SimperingToad wrote in Old Candidates: Silliest Auction Prices of the Year:Okay, I don't know if I've ever typed this before, but WTF?!!

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