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4e Combat an Illustrated Example
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Gnat the Beggar
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Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 10:24 am

MadMaligor wrote:In addition...whats with the pre defined Kobolds? Even in 1E all Kobolds dont go down with a single dagger prick, nor do all of them run at the first drop of blood. D&D has always been about creativity and changing up the rules so to speak. If every time my players faced a goblin, and every goblin were the same lame version of some LotR rip off of Golem, my players would have been looking for a new DM long ago.

You can certainly generalize Kobolds and Goblins, Zombies or Vampires, heck even generalize Dragons. But each group can (and I would argue should) have variety and depth. Maybe not the same amout of depth, but Dragons shouldnt be the only unique group with different abilities based only on a color schematic. Heck within a color group there should be differences (and not just age).

Back in the day, Monster variety mainly consited of personality traits and non combat roleplay. Even then though I bent the rules on the rare occasion to change things up and throw a curve ball at the PC's for combat as well.

But hey, if you like the ol "a Kobold, is a Kobold, is a Kobold" mentality, then I guess we will have to agree to disagree. Thats the beauty of D&D though, in all its versions. They all have a place and they all can work for different groups. =)

MM

I tend to agree with many of your statements, though I think you are generalizing OD&D too much.
Monsters aint just monsters. And they never were in any of the older version game I have played or DMed.
In all the versions I have played or DMed the monsters often had tactical leaders who would lead much the same as any humanoid tactical leader in battle.
And the monsters would often come up with clever and sometimes ingenious strategies to attempt to defeat the good guys.
The OD&D and AD&D rules often stress role-playing and making home rules and variances of the written rules for personal use.
I would think this would work for ANY rules system (To a point of course) and for any edition as well.

I think the biggest of the differences that 3x and 4e offer is giving fancy sounding names to sometimes overly enhanced critters, both PC's and monsters.
Some of the enhanced abilities seem to me to be WAY over the top (although some of them some seem ok).

A fire breathing dragonborn Paladin comes to mind. :roll:

I am sorry, but that is simply too much for my simple mind to comprehend.

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JohnGaunt
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Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 10:55 am

Gabe from Penny Arcade says the following, which is as positive as I can believe, at http://www.penny-arcade.com/2008/5/30/

"The comabt was fun but it was the puzzle solving and interaction with the rest of the party that really made the game for me. At any rate if you're curious about D&D in general or 4th edition specifically I think these podcasts will be helpful and hopefully funny."

The first podcast is at http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dn ... entic=true

Plaag
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Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 11:54 am

JohnGaunt wrote:Gabe from Penny Arcade says the following, which is as positive as I can believe, at http://www.penny-arcade.com/2008/5/30/

"The comabt was fun but it was the puzzle solving and interaction with the rest of the party that really made the game for me. At any rate if you're curious about D&D in general or 4th edition specifically I think these podcasts will be helpful and hopefully funny."

The first podcast is at http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dn ... entic=true

I quite liked this, especially seeing how one of them has never played D&D.

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killjoy32
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Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 12:00 pm

MadMaligor wrote:
I have play tested a number of encounters now and if anything, the combat is alot more tactical, the players really get into talking amongst themselves and working out strategies, MM

see now thats something else i have a problem with. though i am not saying its this version any more than others. during a combat, when is there time to be "more tactical" or "talk amongst themselves" ?

sorry in my games, if anything like that happens, the player is getting a sword over the head while they are stood there like muppets.

battles should be quick. the players decisions likewise. if they dont make one, they dont get to decide.

Al

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killjoy32
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Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 12:02 pm

Plaag wrote:
I quite liked this, especially seeing how one of them has never played D&D.

ShaneG.

agreed, a nice fresh view, which is of course what you want. not us fuddy-duddys comparing it to versions from yester-year

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Deadlord
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Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 4:02 pm

I give each player 6 seconds to decide what they are going to do. Works well.

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killjoy32
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Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 4:15 pm

Deadlord39 wrote:I give each player 6 seconds to decide what they are going to do. Works well.

kinda how i like to do it.

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Busman
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Posted: Sun Jun 01, 2008 5:33 pm

Deadlord39 wrote:I give each player 6 seconds to decide what they are going to do. Works well.

I would have figured you grognards would have given 1 minute. :lol:

MadMaligor
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Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 1:09 am

killjoy32 wrote:
see now thats something else i have a problem with. though i am not saying its this version any more than others. during a combat, when is there time to be "more tactical" or "talk amongst themselves" ?

sorry in my games, if anything like that happens, the player is getting a sword over the head while they are stood there like muppets.

battles should be quick. the players decisions likewise. if they dont make one, they dont get to decide.

Al

Actually it all worked out pretty fast, but I see what you are saying and I am going to steal that six second rule. In our last session I got a bit frustrated when they were all excited and jabbering over the ins and outs during a combat encounter. I chalked it up to using a new system, but I think I will crack down on it unless its outside of combat. Oh and btw, they are all pretty skilled roleplayers and dont use the mechanical terms, but rather discuss things within the scope of the game unless we are having a beer on the porch (buts thats just years of gaming together and happens for most when you get in character like that I would guess...I dont have a whole lot of experience outside our group).

Okay, I can't help but ask, but what exactly is a "potato wedger"? - bclarkie

killjoy32
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Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 5:04 am

MadMaligor wrote:
Actually it all worked out pretty fast, but I see what you are saying and I am going to steal that six second rule. In our last session I got a bit frustrated when they were all excited and jabbering over the ins and outs during a combat encounter. I chalked it up to using a new system, but I think I will crack down on it unless its outside of combat. Oh and btw, they are all pretty skilled roleplayers and dont use the mechanical terms, but rather discuss things within the scope of the game unless we are having a beer on the porch (buts thats just years of gaming together and happens for most when you get in character like that I would guess...I dont have a whole lot of experience outside our group).

hey mad mal, if you utilise that "ruling" and do the same encounter again, then i would be very interested in the outcome. imo, thats when some of the best gaming moments come from, because things happen quickly and PCs dont always react the way they want to or are meant to.

can lead to some classic encounters. nudges badmike

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Gnat the Beggar
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Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 8:58 am

I have a question about the mat.
It looks like it might be a mass produced generic Terrain Map?
Who makes them?
It would be handy for many roadside wilderness encounters between dungeons.

"Guys, I am starting to think Tegel Manor might be haunted..."
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MadMaligor
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Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 9:24 am

Aneoth wrote:I have a question about the mat.
It looks like it might be a mass produced generic Terrain Map?
Who makes them?
It would be handy for many roadside wilderness encounters between dungeons.

Dungeon tiles for the D&D miniatures games work nicely but are not all encompassing and are pricey. I prefer to use Chessex battle mats (IMHO they are the best). I use the multi colored wet erase markers that they recommend and just draw what I want for terrain. They come double sided, so if you use a hex system your good to go. I have two large ones and 4 smaller ones. That way players can keep track in a multi level dungeon or key outdoor locations that get reused during an adventure.

MM

Okay, I can't help but ask, but what exactly is a "potato wedger"? - bclarkie

Gnat the Beggar
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Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 10:39 am

MadMaligor wrote:
Dungeon tiles for the D&D miniatures games work nicely but are not all encompassing and are pricey. I prefer to use Chessex battle mats (IMHO they are the best). I use the multi colored wet erase markers that they recommend and just draw what I want for terrain. They come double sided, so if you use a hex system your good to go. I have two large ones and 4 smaller ones. That way players can keep track in a multi level dungeon or key outdoor locations that get reused during an adventure.

MM

Thanks.
I just hit the Chessex web site and saw the mats.
In addition to the basic size mats, most of us are used to seeing (about 2' x' 3', and 3' x 4'), they now sell what they call the Mondomat:

102" x 54" (259cm x 137cm) That is 8-1/2 foot by 4-1/2 foot!!

HOLY COW!

They also offer Factory Second Mats at a discount rate and they will accept returns of them too!
NICE!

"Guys, I am starting to think Tegel Manor might be haunted..."
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killjoy32
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Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 10:53 am

Aneoth wrote:
They also offer Factory Second Mats at a discount rate and they will accept returns of them too!
NICE!

i was thinking it might be a good idea to maybe get a smaller one of these kinda things for the Tegel game at GenCon.

mike...what do you think?

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Gnat the Beggar
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Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 11:50 am

killjoy32 wrote:
i was thinking it might be a good idea to maybe get a smaller one of these kinda things for the Tegel game at GenCon.

mike...what do you think?

Mike has a couple of mats already.
They have folds making them tuff to keep flat but they work OK.

If you do decide to spend some money on the reduced price factory seconds be sure to call or E-Mail them first to be sure they have some in stock.
Also, dont fold them. Roll them instead.............

"Guys, I am starting to think Tegel Manor might be haunted..."
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Deadlord
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Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 2:36 pm

Let me clarify the rule, Maddie. I give the player six seconds to begin their answer. They are not allowed to talk shop with other players unless the characters are close by and unengaged. They may ask me a question or two, such as "Does the orc that the fighter hit look hurt?". They can also ask "Does the orc that the fighter hit have a gold ring on his middle finger?", at which point they spend their combat round trying to catch a glimpse of the finger.
The players I am used to dealing with are usually very much into roleplaying, and have no problems with having to make quick decisions. I've even had a player who had a character that was quite unwise, and the player insisted on occasionally making stupid decisions, or none at all, under duress. I recall one particular incident, he sheathed hs sword and took out his dagger to fight a rust monster. He had a WOODEN torch in hand, and set it on the ground to fight the monster. His character knew what a rust monster was, but he reasoned that his not-so-swift character would first think to preserve his sword, and not think of the torch, which he usually set on the ground.
I used to have a sand timer that was 6 seconds exactly, years ago. I may actually still have it. Now that I think of it, I want that bastid.......

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Badmike
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Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 2:44 pm

Aneoth wrote:
Mike has a couple of mats already.
They have folds making them tuff to keep flat but they work OK.

If you do decide to spend some money on the reduced price factory seconds be sure to call or E-Mail them first to be sure they have some in stock.
Also, dont fold them. Roll them instead.............

I have two or three "regular" sized mats and one "battlemat" that covers an entire table and then some. We've been using them as long as I remember, probably since they started making them. Yeh Aneoth is right, roll them...I used to have them laying flat but I ended up folding them, then they end up with large creases....

Through the years I've found battle mats stop a LOT of arguments before they get started, particularly if you are already using minis and some kind of dungeon wall system like Dwarven Forge or even the old fashioned Dungeon Tiles. "No, as you can see, your thief CANNOT sneak past the barbarian swinging the long sword and the 8 wererats he is battling in the 10x10 corridor...even if you climb the walls, dude"

Mike B.

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Badmike
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Posted: Mon Jun 02, 2008 3:00 pm

killjoy32 wrote:
hey mad mal, if you utilise that "ruling" and do the same encounter again, then i would be very interested in the outcome. imo, thats when some of the best gaming moments come from, because things happen quickly and PCs dont always react the way they want to or are meant to.

can lead to some classic encounters. nudges badmike

Al

I never used a time rule but it really ratchets up the game, as I found out in last year's Tegel Manor game. Generally, though, groups I play with move the action along pretty well, if they don't I simply skip their action and move back to the bad guys, usually that stops that from happening again....

Mike B.

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