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Why Monochrome Covers?
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Sea-to-sky-games
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Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 2:53 pm

a 250K print run for Tomb of Horrors is probably wrong. I remember Gary saying that the best-selling modules for TSR (of which S1 was one -- others included T1 and I6) sold about 100,000 copies each. Of course this doesn't count modules that were bundled in like B2. A 10K or 25K print run sounds more realistic, and even the latter number is probably too high.

True -- 250K for monochrome T1 does sound high, but I can think of reasons why this could be the case.

For instance, the cost of each additional copy is probably next to nothing. The largest cost comes from using the printing press in the first place, not the quantity of the product to be printed. Likewise, it also depends on whether they chose a smaller publisher or a larger one (in terms of capacity and specialization). To be honest, I would say the cost differential (or relative price) between making 25k and 250k is very small.

So even if there was a low probability they would all sell, it probably made sense from an economic perspective. The last thing they would want to do is have to go back to the printing press and have to incur another set of upfront costs to produce more. And if they didn't sell, they could (and probably did) just pulp them.

Thus, while S1 and T1 may have only sold 100,000 each, much more were likely to have been printed.

dcas
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Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 3:55 pm

Well, paper wasn't as expensive back then, that's for sure, but 250K for a single printing still sounds awfully high, not to mention optimistic. And if they did print 250K of the mono S1, then what would be the sense in making subsequent printings? Why not just continue to sell the monochrome version instead of printing a color cover version? The S-series page here states that S1 had three mono printings and three color printings (not including the 1999 printing).

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Xaxaxe
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Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 4:11 pm

250K in 1979 for, all things considered, a niche product? Sounds like another case of "Gary-itis" to me ... Gary either mis-remembering or adding a zero at the end.

Sea-to-sky-games
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Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 5:54 pm

Well, paper wasn't as expensive back then, that's for sure, but 250K for a single printing still sounds awfully high, not to mention optimistic. And if they did print 250K of the mono S1, then what would be the sense in making subsequent printings? Why not just continue to sell the monochrome version instead of printing a color cover version? The S-series page here states that S1 had three mono printings and three color printings (not including the 1999 printing).

Yeah, the number is probably closer to 25K for the first mono run, and maybe 250,000 for all the runs (mono and color) combined.

I was just listing reasons as to how 250K could make sense.

sauromatian
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Posted: Fri Feb 29, 2008 11:48 pm

Xaxaxe wrote:a niche product?

Not at that moment. Fads have a way of exploding in number like a swarm of locusts. At that time D&D was it, what everyone found under the Christmas tree.

Maybe every kid that got it didn't even necessarily play it, but the massive numbers were there. Like Davy Crockett coonskin caps, chemistry sets after Sputnik, Rubik's Cubes, Cabbage Patch Kids, or Furbys, it was briefly ubiquitous.

It's hard to really describe what it was like back then, in the context of the 'niche product' of today. Gamer culture as we know it existed, but the mainstream was buying it as well.

deimos3428
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Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 1:31 pm

sauromatian wrote:It's hard to really describe what it was like back then, in the context of the 'niche product' of today. Gamer culture as we know it existed, but the mainstream was buying it as well.

I'd agree if we were talking 1983-1984...but 1979? I'm not so sure I'd call it mainstream, yet.

Personally, I think 250k is way high for mono S1, and Gary just typed one too many zeroes...

sauromatian
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Posted: Sat Mar 01, 2008 2:05 pm

deimos3428 wrote:I'd agree if we were talking 1983-1984...but 1979? I'm not so sure I'd call it mainstream, yet.

For the what-is-it curiosity crowd, definitely. 1979 was about the time that every newspaper & periodical ran features on the game. Remember I'm not really talking about gamers here, but rather the average joe-six-pack's appetite for novelty.

People would buy the D&D box set for themselves or as presents. Like most novelties it was purchased with very shallow interest; maybe they wouldn't go so far as to play the game or if they did, wouldn't go beyond the basic set.

By 1983, the public knew what D&D was, the novelty had faded, & that market had disappeared. What survived was a group of more loyal customers who actually did play the game & buy supplements. However their total numbers were smaller than before.

If D&D could be said to have grown at all in this period, it would be the broader market reached by the cartoons & novels. Overall, the games industry began to slump after a widespread early 80s boom, from Rubiks Cubes to crossword puzzles mags to video games.

Charles G.
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Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 3:06 pm

sauromatian wrote:If D&D could be said to have grown at all in this period, it would be the broader market reached by the cartoons & novels. Overall, the games industry began to slump after a widespread early 80s boom, from Rubiks Cubes to crossword puzzles mags to video games.

This is a very good point. At the time, the U.S. was in a recession. In '82, TSR bought out SPI, and made a real muck of things (see Greg Costykan's article "SPI Died for your Sins" for his take on it at http://www.costik.com/spisins.html)

Another casualty was Metagaming, which went under in spring of '83 as Howard Thompson thought he could "see the writing on the wall" and decided to abruptly close up shop. Of course, this was sort of a self fulfilling prophecy - had someone with more emotional stability been in charge they might well have pulled through. Unfortunately, HT was a few cans short of a six pack in that department, launching a brainless and expensive vendetta against Steve Jackson.

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Posted: Sun Mar 02, 2008 3:46 pm

Charles G. wrote:Another casualty was Metagaming, which went under in spring of '83 as Howard Thompson thought he could "see the writing on the wall" and decided to abruptly close up shop.

Ah, good ol' H.T. ... I actually have his business card now, thanks to that last Collector's Trove auction.

The final days of the Metagaming saga are strange indeed. Here was a company that had reorganized itself (Games Research Group), launched a house organ (Interplay), made all kinds of announcements of future projects, had a loyal (if perhaps, concerned) fanbase ... and then just pretty much shut down one day following a unilateral decision from Howard Thompson. Who has more or less never been seen again ... DUN-DUN!

And, as mentioned, H.T. might not have had all the spots on his dice. I'll never forget three things, in particular:

1. The press release announcing that Metagaming had won its copyright battles versus Steve Jackson Games for Ogre and G.E.V. One problem: Metagaming had actually lost.

2. The unhealthy obsession with SJG (and Steve himself, it seems), which reached its low point with the actual release of a game that openly mocked SJG. Even with a $1.95 price tag, it has been called the worst value in the history of boardgames.

3. Completely guessing wrong on what gamers expected in terms of production. In an era when boardgames and RPGs of all sizes were taking on a more professional, attractive, consumer-conscious look, Metagaming invested in a horrible typesetter that could, apparently, only produce justified sans-serif type. Even better, Metagaming's cover art began to be produced by what appeared to be 19-year-old art school dropouts. For a final touch, most of the items produced in 1982 and 1983 appeared to have literally skipped the editing stage.

I'll never forget the essay that H.T. wrote (in Interplay #1, IIRC) proclaiming that gamers "didn't care" about packaging, art, attractiveness, durability of components, etc. ... all they cared about was "play value" and price. Uh-oh, Howard. Ding-dong! You're wrong!

*****

Um, wait ... where were we? Monochrome! Right, got it! Sorry about that ...

Charles G.
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Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 8:09 pm

Xaxaxe wrote:Ah, good ol' H.T. ... I actually have his business card now, thanks to that last Collector's Trove auction.

....snip....

1. The press release announcing that Metagaming had won its copyright battles versus Steve Jackson Games for Ogre and G.E.V. One problem: Metagaming had actually lost.

....snip.....

*****

Um, wait ... where were we? Monochrome! Right, got it! Sorry about that ...

I got the Pat Hidy artwork in that auction, but managed to lose the auctions for Kevin's product proposals for MGC and internal MGC coorespondence to some dude in Hong Kong. Sad, really, as I was doing research on Metagaming unreleased products, and this was critical info, now lost in a vault in SE Asia for the rest of time *sigh*. And it's not like I didn't bid hard for it... had my wife seen what I put in there I'd not be alive writing this right now...

With regards to the press release you mentioned above, do you happen to have a copy of it? While I'm very much familiar with HTs lunatic lawsuit, I had not heard about this press release and would love to see it.

Getting back to the subject, for comparison purposes MGC's first run of the Wizard rules in Dec of '77 was for 30,000 copies. Based on that I tend to find a 25K figure for the S1 print run to be a bit more believable than 250K, but I would definately not rule out the latter altogether. And I would suggest that the print run for all editions of that module could quite easily have topped 250K.

g026r
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Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 9:17 pm

Hong Kong? That could be degassey, perhaps?

He's a member, so it might be worth sending him a PM and checking. He seems a nice enough guy; might be willing to help you with the info you're looking for.

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bbarsh
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Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 9:41 pm

Look, we have to lose that 250k number. It is not realistic in the least. Even at a production cost of $1 each, I somehow cannot believe TSR was laying out that kind of scratch for a module in 1979. It simply is not plausible. 25k is probably dead on.

And I could've bought these damn modules off the 1$ rack!!!

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Xaxaxe
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Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 9:45 pm

bbarsh wrote:Look, we have to lose that 250k number.

Gotta agree. And the sooner the better. It's one step removed from farce.

Sea-to-sky-games
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Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 12:06 am

Look, we have to lose that 250k number. It is not realistic in the least. Even at a production cost of $1 each, I somehow cannot believe TSR was laying out that kind of scratch for a module in 1979. It simply is not plausible. 25k is probably dead on.

I think the 25K number is probably more accurate, but it is possible that you are greatly overestimating the cost of making a module. Remember the thing is just basically a pamphlet, and not a real book.

Nowadays, it might cost you $3 to make a 200-page bounded softcover book with a relatively small print run (that's a pretty conservative estimate from what I've read... it's probably closer to $1.50). Without knowing the economics in 1978, the per unit cost might be lower or higher due to subsequent increase in the money supply (inflation) and technological advancement (deflation). For instance, just looking at monetary effects, $3 today would be the equivalent to about 90 cents in 1978.

But that's for a 200-page softbound book with a small print run. Again it's hard to say, but a simple 32-page pamphlet should not be costing anywhere near $1 to make in 1978, particularly if you are churning out 25k or 250K of the things. Even something like TOEE probably didn't cost that much.

dcas
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Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 1:11 am

Sea-to-sky-games wrote:But that's for a 200-page softbound book with a small print run. Again it's hard to say, but a simple 32-page pamphlet should not be costing anywhere near $1 to make in 1978, particularly if you are churning out 25k or 250K of the things. Even something like TOEE probably didn't cost that much.

Remember that TSR modules are not just pamphlets, but also have 2- or 4-color cardstock covers with maps printed on the inside, not bound together with the pamphlet itself.

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deimos3428
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Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 9:10 am

Sea-to-sky-games wrote:I think the 25K number is probably more accurate, but it is possible that you are greatly overestimating the cost of making a module.

<snip>

Again it's hard to say, but a simple 32-page pamphlet should not be costing anywhere near $1 to make in 1978, particularly if you are churning out 25k or 250K of the things.

Sea, there's a bit of a flaw in that reasoning. You're caught in an infinite improbability loop. Fortuntately for you, a prosimian brain is already to the rescue.

1. 250k isn't implausible because we might be greatly overestimating the per-book cost.
2. The per-book cost would be far less if you're churning out 250k of them.

So to sum up, if you did produce 250k of them, then producing 250k of them is no longer implausible. Well....yes, and it scales nicely too! The same could be said for producing 6 billion copies. Wait, somethin' obviously ain't right. :lol:

Regardless of the precise cost per-copy, it's going to be more expensive to over-produce copies and have them sit in a warehouse for years vs. producing a reasonable number of copies, selling out, and having to do another run. TSR would have played it conservatively, as the sales weren't known. (For all they knew, the module might have flopped.) It's too much of an initial cash outlay for TSR at that point.

As a total for all of the S1 print runs, 250k isn't completely unreasonable. For just the first run, no way.

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Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 9:13 am

I think its more like 2.5 copies. Show of hands who has one.

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deimos3428
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Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 9:16 am

serleran wrote:I think its more like 2.5 copies. Show of hands who has one.

I think mine counts as the half-one. It's in pretty bad condition.

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