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D&D and AD&D 1e Rankings at RPG Geek
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Post Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 11:41 am 
 

Badmike wrote:I don't like the idea of including different editions for a game like CoC, either.  There isn't enough difference to matter between, say, 5th and 6th edition Coc rules to bother.  

Our system does account for this - we group CoC 2nd through 6th editions as being the same "RPG". Not the same book... but the same game. We consider 1st edition to be different enough from 2nd-6th to be its own game. We have rankings for RPGs as well - my original post was individual RPG products (generally books... though some accessories are also on the list - we have a separate list for periodicals such as Dragon Magazine, Dungeon, etc).

In short, the data scheme at RPG geek is as follows (from largest container to smallest):

Family - the largest umbrella to cover games that have seen multiple editions. The Dungeons and Dragons family is one of our largest as are the Star Wars licensed games.

RPG - these are the actual games we play  ... we only consider two RPGs different if they have enough core rules differences. So AD&D 1e is different from Basic D&D is different from 3e D&D is different from 4e.  They are also, obviously, different from CoC and Runequest, etc. We consider White Box D&D a separate RPG from Basic Editions but don't consider the Magenta Box D&D to be different (from a general discussion and ranking standpoint... ) from the Red Box Set 1.  RPGs are the most basic "container" - these are the games we play and have one or more books (some small RPGs have just one core book... some RPGs like AD&D 1e have hundreds of books).

RPG Items - these are the individual books. We consider each book to be different unless the changes are so minor as to be only cosmetic, different cover artwork, hardcover vs. softcover of the same book would be the same RPG item.

RPG Versions - these are the variations for a given RPG Item.  The AD&D 1e Player's Handbook currently has 10 versions - First through 8th printings plus the 9th+ with new artwork along with the German Spieler Handbuch.

We rank both RPG Items and RPGs (not Versions nor Families). We support collection tracking down to the Version (with individual front cover scans for each version).

And the lists are definitely a popularity contest for the patrons of RPG Geek. Which is the design goal of the lists ;)

-Dave


Last edited by wavemotion on Fri Jul 02, 2010 11:56 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Post Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 11:42 am 
 

I've never known of anyone playing CoC in Alabama, either.
And there are a lot of RPG groups here.  I know several people who own copies of the rules, but they are generally (like me) Lovecraft fans who bought copies out of curiosity.


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Post Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 5:47 pm 
 

wavemotion wrote:don't consider the Magenta Box D&D to be different...from the Red Box Set 1.
Careful..that statement is enough to launch a ten-page flamewar on Dragonsfoot. :D

RPG Versions - these are the variations for a given RPG Item.  The AD&D 1e Player's Handbook currently has 10 versions - First through 8th printings plus the 9th+ with new artwork along with the German Spieler Handbuch.
It seems like you're following our lead at bit too much.  

Why create eight distinct "RPG Verions" to mirror the first eight printings and then lump the last eight or so printings into a single "RPG Version" based on the cover art?  That might sound hypocritical because we do exactly that...but we also have people interested in discovering 7th printing variants.  I very much doubt many RPG Geek fans are to this degree:
viewtopic.php?t=7457&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=7th+printing

For your purposes, and ignoring foreign editions, three based on the main cover features would seem to suffice:
* Demon Idol cover, no angled banner (T1st through 3rd)
* Demon Idol cover, angled banner (4th through 8th)
* Wizard cover, 9th+

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Post Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 6:22 pm 
 

deimos3428 wrote:Why create eight distinct "RPG Verions" to mirror the first eight printings and then lump the last eight or so printings into a single "RPG Version" based on the cover art?


I take it back, we have the first seven plus the 9th and the German listed.

http://rpg.geekdo.com/rpgitem/43359/players-handbook

We don't actually list an 8th yet. The reason is that we require members who are entering the information to have the books - Eric Aldrich has 7 versions of the PHB. I have 6 which is a superset of Eric. Sebastian also has 6 which is a superset of Erics with the exception of the German edition. Between the three of us, we've entered those versions - and between us we have all but the 8th and none of us have more than a single printing of the new cover art. When someone shows up with the 8th printing we'll get that version in. When someone shows up that cares enough to split out the 9th+ printings, they are welcome to to do so - they aren't collectible for me so it won't be me that does it.  The content is, as always, user generated but within the strict guidelines (http://rpg.geekdo.com/wiki/page/Guide_to_Data_Entry) we've laid out.

It's the same for any particular item... collectors on our site want to track their collections - as such they will enter versions to track them if they don't exist. Most users only care to track at the RPG item level (i.e. one AD&D 1e Player's Handbook is as good as another in terms of playing/discussing - i.e. they don't care if the TM is present or not on the cover!). To each, their own. This user generated content is the exact model we desire and have designed to (and is the primary difference with content here at the Acaeum... well, that and about 17000 other RPG items). Over time, the database gets more and more complete. I just finished entering in my three significant printings of my D&D 3.5 Player's Handbook (the original printing, the October 2004 printing with all included errata  and the leather bound edition).  There are more printings than that... but I track my collection to that level and those are the versions I've entered. When someone comes along that wants to track the lesser printings, they have the power and flexibility to do that. For the 1e DM Guide we currently have First, Sixth-Tenth printings plus the German Handbuch für Spielleiter because that's what the userbase owns. We won't list anything we don't have a copy of (which is why we were pretty stoked to finally land not one, but two original copies of Space Gamer Issue #1 which even Steve Jackson no longer owns!).

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Post Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 6:43 pm 
 

wavemotion wrote:We won't list anything we don't have a copy of (which is why we were pretty stoked to finally land not one, but two original copies of Space Gamer Issue #1 which even Steve Jackson no longer owns!).

Good to see the third copy added was as invisible as when it was slunk into the middle of that batch of UK zines over here. ;)

=
Sensible dividing lines on revisions/printings/etc. aren't an easy call at the best of times anyhow, albeit a bit of clumping and brief description under the relevant narrative box would still seem to make sense, IMHO.
Reworking /is/ possible, of course; even if that's frustratingly slow at times. :/


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Post Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 6:45 pm 
 

Badmike wrote:Maybe it's an East coast thing?  Besides myself and one other guy, I"ve never actually seen CoC played in Texas.



There were plenty in Houston (mid-80s) & Austin (late-80s to present). Then again, the games I witnessed were usually those involving myself.

  


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Post Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 6:47 pm 
 

faro wrote:Good to see the third copy added was as invisible as when it was slunk into the middle of that batch of UK zines over here. ;)

Awesome pic!

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Post Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 6:48 pm 
 

+thx. Would've been a lot easier on the knees for A4 'zines, though, Dave. I should've taken that hint! (+ was rather hoping someone might spot the intruder).

deimos3428 wrote:For your purposes, and ignoring foreign editions, three based on the main cover features would seem to suffice:
* Demon Idol cover, no angled banner (T1st through 3rd)
* Demon Idol cover, angled banner (4th through 8th)
* Wizard cover, 9th+

Was more-or-less on board, y'lemur, until I hit that "ignoring foreign editions" phrase. Tsk, tsk... ^'


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Post Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 6:59 pm 
 

sauromatian wrote:
Shhhh, don't spoil it. Little Lord Fauntleroy's rants against the unwashed peasantry are hilariously entertaining, not unlike Tea Party activity over here. Or Marie Antoinette.


I also don't mind "characters" on forums.  Frankly, it gets too boring otherwise.  I quite honestly enjoy the posts of the individual under discussion.  I find him to be knowledgeable about the subject matter, and entertaining to boot.  :)  No point getting bent about things.

  


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Post Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 9:13 pm 
 

gvaughn1 wrote:I also don't mind "characters" on forums.  Frankly, it gets too boring otherwise.  I quite honestly enjoy the posts of the individual under discussion.



Certainly it is better to offer criticism of an idea than to ignore it. For instance, what if wavemotion approached the Acaeum with the RPGgeek idea, & all he got were "Good job!" comments or perhaps a smiley doing a thumbs up? Much less useful than picking it apart.

  


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Post Posted: Fri Jul 02, 2010 10:59 pm 
 

faro wrote:+thx. Would've been a lot easier on the knees for A4 'zines, though, Dave. I should've taken that hint! (+ was rather hoping someone might spot the intruder).


Was more-or-less on board, y'lemur, until I hit that "ignoring foreign editions" phrase. Tsk, tsk... ^'

Bah, I just meant for purposes of this discussion.  Foreign editions are very important, obviously. :P

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Post Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 12:48 am 
 

wavemotion wrote: It's fairly well known in the Boston area as well. There is a reason this is selling for between $110 and $150 - and not by collectors. Nobody is collecting a mass produced softcover from 1999


The fact that an item is selling for $110 to $150 is significant because it tends to indicate that there are too few of them to qualify as a popular game product.  It is hard to argue that a game product in a display case for over $100 is having a widespread game table impact.

The fact that Delta Green is a softcover product from 1999 is irrelevant to collectors.  What matters is "collectibility"...a function of scarcity, perceived value and the resulting market value.  Some of the most high value collectibles are literally only slips of paper.  Almost by definition, someone paying $100+ for a gaming item is either a collector or a Warhammer 40,000 miniatures player.  :x

The US market is D&D, D&D and D&D...followed by a few other games that have managed to attract a following.

That's wierd for me to say because I GM'd the hell out of Shadowrun at one point.  :scratch:   But Shadowrun has receded while D&D has maintained and even enjoyed a second boom.

I didn't see any Shadowrun products on the list from RPGGeek.  Did I miss them?


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Post Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 7:13 am 
 

FormCritic wrote:The fact that an item is selling for $110 to $150 is significant because it tends to indicate that there are too few of them to qualify as a popular game product.  


By that measure, White Box D&D wouldn't qualify either.

Almost by definition, someone paying $100+ for a gaming item is either a collector

Not buying many RPG products lately? I just picked up IronClaw released on Thursday for $70. Many new RPG books are $70... Ptolus was $110 new.  WFRP 3rd lists for $100 but I only paid $80 when it came out not long ago. No idea where you plucked the $100 = collector in terms of RPG items but it's simply not true in my experience.

On a tangent... it's interesting to look at inflation. $1.00 in 1980 had the same buying power as $3.20 in 2010.  So if you buy a 1e Player's Handbook for $80 today you paid the equivalent of someone buying it new in 1980.

Now I've picked up a couple copies of the Rules Cyclopedia for $60 - both in near mint condition. With inflation from 1990, I paid less than the list price. I also collect pre-1980 Atari carts - most cost me a quarter at the thrift store. Price is not always the best measure of collectibility.

The fact that Delta Green is a softcover product from 1999 is irrelevant to collectors.  What matters is "collectibility"...a function of scarcity, perceived value and the resulting market value.  


The demand is high because its a fantastic product. Nobody is collecting a mass produced paperback from 1999. Nobody has Delta Green products under glass. Nobody is putting them in acid free baggies. Nobody is tracking the various printings it went through. No 'Acaeum' site has arrived on the scene to microscopically pick apart bindings. They are reading and playing them.  I agree that demand outstrips supply (basic Economics 101) - but it's by us players,  not collectors.

I didn't see any Shadowrun products on the list from RPGGeek.  Did I miss them?

I only listed the older D&D products which seemed to be of greatest interest to those of us on the Acaeum. When asked, I posted some figures for CoC, Runequest and WFRP.  As you have asked for the Shadowrun...

On the RPG Ranking list:

#51   Shadowrun (3rd Edition)
#74   Shadowrun (4th Edition)
#130 Shadowrun (2nd Edition)
#251 Shadowrun (1st Edition)

On the RPG Items list:

#165 Street Magic
#182 Portfolio of a Dragon: Dunkelzahn's Secrets
#270 Harlequin
#306 Renraku Arcology: Shutdown
#355 Arsenal
#422 Augmentation
#488 Runner's Companion

I really meant for the original post to spark some debate on the ranking of old school D&D products but it seems to have taken a bit of a turn. Typical ;)  However, I continue to appreciate the well thought out discussion here!

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Post Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 9:03 am 
 

wavemotion wrote:Not buying many RPG products lately? I just picked up IronClaw released on Thursday for $70. Many new RPG books are $70... Ptolus was $110 new.  WFRP 3rd lists for $100 but I only paid $80 when it came out not long ago.

Something to be said for playing OOP RPGs if on a tight budget? ;)


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Post Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 9:39 am 
 

Any Necromancer Games products in that top 200?
Any placement for TLG's Castle Zagyg?


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Post Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 10:25 am 
 

ashmire13 wrote:6 out of around 200,000 RPG Geek members is pretty good...  :wink:


I had to save for disbelief vs. hallucinatory terrain over numbers like that! Conclusion similar.
<wink>

  


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Post Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 11:29 am 
 

wavemotion wrote:Many new RPG books are $70... Ptolus was $110 new.  WFRP 3rd lists for $100 but I only paid $80 when it came out not long ago.


Actually, I had no idea that new RPG products were that expensive. The only *new* products I have purchased in the last year are some 4e D&D books. Are you talking full MSRP retail? I never pay full retail for new stuff. Amazon FTW.

4e Players Handbook: $23.07
DM Guide: $23.07

Buy both get free shipping and no tax.

  

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Post Posted: Sat Jul 03, 2010 11:38 am 
 

Ack, whoever put Shadowrun 3rd edition at #51, well above 1st and even the 2nd edition needs to have their soy slopped and churned, chummer. But, if its a poll of "playing greatness" as opposed to "originality" than I can see that... I guess. If you like boring stupid mechanics.


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