D&D version 4.0--what do YOU think it's going to be like • Page 15 • Collecting General • The Acaeum

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D&D version 4.0--what do YOU think it's going to be like
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deimos3428
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Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 10:45 am

Aneoth wrote:You do not have to agree with his views, just as he does not have to agree with your views, but IMO you should both agree that you are entiltled to post those views here.

Sorry Aneoth. I just don't want to see this place to turn into another ENworld.

copycat
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Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 10:52 am

I think 4e, on the surface, is a highly detailed skirmish game. This is both good and bad - it is good because that was something that Chainmail did well, and so did Warhammer. It is bad because that was not what OD&D was about. Underneath, I don't know as no one ever talks about anything but the combat in 4e - I want to know what it does other than simulate battle.

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Blackmoor
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Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 11:28 am

Just got an E-mail from Amazon telling me my pre-order is on the way

I will let you guys know what I think when I get around to reading them.

I was told by one of my gamer friends that the PDF is already available on Torrent as well :evil:

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Kingofpain89
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Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 11:48 am

Zenfinite wrote:P.S. Just taking this moment to pimp my friend Bruce Cordell. He's a writer for WoTC, and does a LOT of modules and stuff. The guy is a great writer, person, all around top notch. Whatever he writes I buy, and I suggest anybody who hasn't checked him out, give him a chance and run an adventure or two from him. It's just really well done. Thanks.

Bruce Cordell? Didn't he write a little something called Return to the Tomb of Horrors? Yeah....I guess he's ok. :wink:

As for 4E....I dont see much of a problem with people discussing it. I'm not likely to play it though. Why bother when I am perfectly happy with 1st edition? I just thank god Parker Bros. and Milton Bradley didnt revamp the rules for Monopoly and Candyland every decade or so. :lol:

You don't like your job, you don't strike. You go in every day and do it really half-assed. That's the American way. - Homer Simpson

Gnat the Beggar
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Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 12:01 pm

deimos3428 wrote:Sorry Aneoth. I just don't want to see this place to turn into another ENworld.

Okie Dokie
I was not in any way offended by either your comments or his.

And I agree with you regarding ENworld.

There are other Supposedly Open Public Forums (RPG types) where if your opinion differs from the moderators or from long time members then you are banished, or at least your posts are hammered by a barrage of harrassing and often moronic and certainly abusive replies, and sometimes your posts are even deleted or edited by the moderators.

I have experienced such places more than once and have never gone back (Thus making them happy). I suspect that the gleemax forums will be such a place before long if it is not already just from the few comments I have read here. (No I have not been there myself)

Places like that where if you are not part of the clique are at best simply suckup forums where the clique members can stroke each others egos to the point that they appear to shine amongst themselves.

I would not wish this forum to succumb to such idiocy.

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Last edited by Gnat the Beggar on Wed Jun 04, 2008 12:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Busman
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Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 12:11 pm

deimos3428 wrote:Don't worry about rambling, and you're entitled to your opinion. I just don't understand the need to post it on the Acaeum. There are plenty of other internet forums to discuss the wonders of WotC, last I checked this wasn't really one of 'em.

I can't speak for others, but I come here to get away from that modern stuff, not read more posts advertising it.

I had believed this forum to be quite neutral on all companies, actually. There are plenty of places on the internet to bash WotC, including the official WotC/D&D forums.

I come to the place to avoid edition bashing no matter the edition. I sure as hell hope Acaeum doesn't turn into one of those places filled with intolerant curmudgeonly grognards with highly elitist attitudes that are in no small part the root cause of the hobby being nearly destroyed for such a long time.

Traveller
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Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 12:22 pm

Busman wrote:This keeps getting brought up as being a controversial thing. Of course they did. Just as Dave Arneson labeled his latest work Blackmoor, and James Ward calls it Metamorphosis Alpha, and Marc Miller calls it Traveller. It's preposterous to think that a company would abandon an IP as valuable as D&D. This site, I assume, is filled with people with SOME business acumen; this should be about as surprising as Ford continuing to call a car a Mustang or a Thunderbird even though it's nothing like it's original.

I can't speak about Blackmoor, owning nothing Blackmoor related except Supplement II for OD&D. Metamorphosis Alpha, Traveller, and D&D all had "Jumping The Shark" moments, and as defined, all have headed downslope. Metamorphosis Alpha's moment was when the Amazing Engine version was released with the different game mechanics that Amazing Engine brought with it. Traveller's moment was when TNE was released. D&D's moment came with the release of the d20 System.

The overall point here is that each game had a Jumping The Shark moment, and that moment occurred when the underlying rules system changed significantly in an attempt to keep the game fresh and relevant. In so doing, we become aware that the game had reached its peak in the edition before and the new versions became irrelevant*. So, while it's natural to gush over any new edition of a game and preach about its supposedly superior qualities, some of us simply don't want to hear it, because we know that the game is inferior to that which came before the Jumping The Shark moment.

*Metamorphosis Alpha being a possible exception, although I believe that what Jim Ward has released since MAtoO is more a cleanup of the original rules than a new edition.

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Kingofpain89
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Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 12:53 pm

Busman wrote:I come to the place to avoid edition bashing no matter the edition. I sure as hell hope Acaeum doesn't turn into one of those places filled with intolerant curmudgeonly grognards with highly elitist attitudes that are in no small part the root cause of the hobby being nearly destroyed for such a long time.

Well technically, this is a forum for D&D collectors....not D&D players. Just so happens that the majority of people who collect apparently played the game at some point. And some of the forum members, long standing forum members I might add, are a bit intolerant when it comes to versions of D&D other than the earlier ones. That is their perogative and I have no issue with it. Most of the people here dont care to discuss 3, 3.5, or 4E because it isnt what we play or collect (moot point since pretty much none of it is collectible...yet). As far as "elitist attitudes"....well I can only assume you have come across one or two of those here and this is meant for them.

You don't like your job, you don't strike. You go in every day and do it really half-assed. That's the American way. - Homer Simpson

FormCritic
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Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 1:04 pm

I think it is important to remember the title of this strand:

D&D version 4.0--what do YOU think it's going to be like

The capital YOU seems to imply that dissenting opinions are OK. So far, aside from my 4th edition collecting strand, this is the only strand on the Acaeum related to 4th edition. It can easily be ignored by anyone who does not like the aggravation.

I would observe that my experience with early D&D rule sets is that they were "rules light," but "argument heavy."

Most old-time DM's will reply that their policy was "My Game - Play, Shut Up or Get Out."

I see that possibility...but I never followed it as a DM. These people are my friends, after all. They are more important than any one disagreement. I know of lots of games that broke apart because of arguments. I don't think that was a good thing.

I would disagree that the "rules heavy" approach of 3.5 makes things easy. I think it makes things slow. There are so many rules I must rely a lot upon my players to help adjudicate the game. Monsters are so complicated I have to essentially hold monster character sheets in my hands.

The positive side to "rules heavy" is fewer arguments. Once in a while a rules lawyer in my game does not like a dice roll or something. I can simply point to the rule that shows he is wrong. Snce he is a rules lawyer, he has to either file an injunction, move for a mistrial or shut up.

This is what makes the skill check rolls in 3.5 so handy. Instead of arguing with a player about why NPC X does not like chocolate, or whether or not the machinery is too loud for the wardogs to hear him, I simply have the lawyer make a roll. I make a secret counter-roll. I tell Perry Gamer Mason that he either succeeded or failed and he has to accept it...because he loves the law. When I give him situational bonuses or minuses (a key concept in the system) he accepts them without argument because he knows the dice are fair. The fact that I completely control the game does not really bother him because his perception is that he always has a chance.

Once in a while I let a player complete an unlikely action because of a lucky dice roll...which harms no one except the monsters.

If 4.0 succeeds in fixing some of the clunky aspects of 3.5, while not turning the game too much further into a superheroes RPG, then I am for it.

Mark

"But I have watched the dragons come, fire-eyed, across the world."

Busman
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Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 2:31 pm

Kingofpain89 wrote:As far as "elitist attitudes"....well I can only assume you have come across one or two of those here and this is meant for them.

Actually, not really, no. I'm hoping that we don't start down that path here. There are other forums that are filled with this sort of attitude.

Deadlord
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Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 3:10 pm

I'm fine with discussing 3/3.5/4E.
They suck. Video games on paper.

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Badmike
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Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 3:19 pm

FormCritic wrote:
This is what makes the skill check rolls in 3.5 so handy. Instead of arguing with a player about why NPC X does not like chocolate, or whether or not the machinery is too loud for the wardogs to hear him, I simply have the lawyer make a roll. I make a secret counter-roll. I tell Perry Gamer Mason that he either succeeded or failed and he has to accept it...because he loves the law. When I give him situational bonuses or minuses (a key concept in the system) he accepts them without argument because he knows the dice are fair. The fact that I completely control the game does not really bother him because his perception is that he always has a chance.

That's why we always used checks vs abilities...solves a lot of problems regarding "Can I jump from this building to that building" (roll Dex check) or "My 18 INT mage would know the answer to that question even if I don't" (roll Int check modified by difficulty). I don't personally see anything wrong with skill checks in any edition; you can roleplay them out if necessary, but they are a simple mechanic to speed the game along.

The problem is when skill checks take the place of everything else. As in most things there is a happy medium

Mike B.

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Badmike
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Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 3:29 pm

FormCritic wrote:I think it is important to remember the title of this strand:

D&D version 4.0--what do YOU think it's going to be like

The capital YOU seems to imply that dissenting opinions are OK. So far, aside from my 4th edition collecting strand, this is the only strand on the Acaeum related to 4th edition. It can easily be ignored by anyone who does not like the aggravation.

I would observe that my experience with early D&D rule sets is that they were "rules light," but "argument heavy."

Most old-time DM's will reply that their policy was "My Game - Play, Shut Up or Get Out."

LOL, reminds me of the older guy in my late 70's neighborhood who supposedly was a "strict old school DM" (only they didn't call it old school back then) whose gaming style blew dead monkeys. His specialty was killing your player then having you hand him your character sheet so he could tear it up in front of you :roll:

I guess this signified his ultimate god like power over your puny character. The only reason even one person showed up to play with him is because in the early days not a lot of people had copies of the rules, and not a lot of people would DM, and players so loved the game they would put up with an incompetent boob as DM just to game.

The game is what you make of it, and ultimately how skilled the DM and players are who participate.

Mike B.

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MadMaligor
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Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 3:56 pm

FormCritic wrote:.....If 4.0 succeeds in fixing some of the clunky aspects of 3.5, while not turning the game too much further into a superheroes RPG, then I am for it.

Mark

Mark, I had the same idea going in as well. For me it was all about how the gameplay worked and did the numbers fit with things like Healing Surges, etc... as far as the rules go.

The math to me has mostly been unchanged, one might argue that d20 is just a different point of view from an algebra standpoint (with a few exceptions). Plate mail is still plate mail, AC three or +7 to AC (though its been seperated a bit in its own catagory to offer differing types).

Until I start rolling percentile dice to hit body parts in Plate mail...AC - Hard metal type (resistant -10 vs blunt, -15 vs slashing, critical modifier 12) value 55, and players have HP values for body parts, I will still consider the game D&D if the numbers and the way things work are still true to the original system.

Thats why I was very concerned that Healing Surges were indeed going to be the "Jumping the Shark" moment. In fact, I would say that even having played with them, I can understand why someone would see them as changing the dynamic enough to be considered a JtS. 4.0 is unusual because its look vs play feel are completely different. At first glance your like "What the hell?!?!?" Then when you play its like "Hey, this is fun and fits right in!" I can see where people say it feels like a step backwards (in some minor degree...its certainly not OD&D).

I respect anyone that says its not D&D, I get it. But its just not how I feel or how I see the system. To me, each version has just been a modified houserule version of the original (the glut coming in at 3.5). The roleplay is still the same, your still fighting the same iconic monsters, using the same archtype characters, solving riddles, finishing quests, slaying dragons...and ridding the world of bad guys to become Heroes known throughout the campaign setting.

I get that people see character races like the dragonborn or tiefling and roll thier eyes. Im sure there are grognards out there who roll their eyes at Half orcs and Gnomes. Hell I sure as heck am not allowing dragonborn or tiefling in my campaign as PC chosen starting races. Who knows what can happen though. I had one campaign where a player ended up running a Minotaur.

Hey, its D&D, wierd shit happens :lol:

Okay, I can't help but ask, but what exactly is a "potato wedger"? - bclarkie

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Posted: Wed Jun 04, 2008 11:08 pm

MadMaligor wrote:Until I start rolling percentile dice to hit body parts in Plate mail...AC - Hard metal type (resistant -10 vs blunt, -15 vs slashing, critical modifier 12) value 55, and players have HP values for body parts, I will still consider the game D&D

You're describing the combat sections of OD&D Supplements I & II. Arneson's hit location system is percentile-based [applied after a conventional D20 to-hit roll], although I'm not sure it was ever used after Blackmoor.

Gygax's weapon vs. AC chart is supposed to be used only when AC represents standard armor types, but unlike your hypothetical system above, it modifies the D20 to-hit roll +1, +2, etc. After Greyhawk it appeared in the Players Handbook & in 1980s paper-wheel combat computers.

Gnat the Beggar
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Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 9:53 am

and players have HP values for body parts, I will still consider the game D&D if the numbers and the way things work are still true to the original system.

That system was and still is used in RuneQuest.
And of course it was created what..... 30 years ago?
First Edition by Chaosism 1978....

IIRC: TSR's OD&D Never used such a system. Nor did TSR's D&D/AD&D.
Does WotCo's 4e now use it?

See the bottom center of the PC sheet below:

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Zenfinite
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Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 10:24 am

deimos3428 wrote:Don't worry about rambling, and you're entitled to your opinion. I just don't understand the need to post it on the Acaeum. There are plenty of other internet forums to discuss the wonders of WotC, last I checked this wasn't really one of 'em.

I can't speak for others, but I come here to get away from that modern stuff, not read more posts advertising it.

My point behind the post I made was sort of to explain where I was coming from when I tried to discuss how I thought 4E was going to turn out. Sort of a PC background on myself, so the reader could get a better idea of where I was coming from in my current opinions. For me, a person's opinion of a game system is more realistic when they've been playing said system for a couple years, and I wanted to show that.

This is only one thread. It's not like the entire forum is cluttered with garbage lol. I'm probably one of the more pro-WoTC people here, but it's because of their Magic: the Gathering card game more than D&D. Damn I love Magic, it's a great game.

But it doesn't matter. I'm an 80s D&D man all the way as I stare at my collection in my bookcases against the far wall. So, it's all good.

Yeah Kingofpain89, he DID write Return. What a great adventure. That's actually how I met him at a Gen Con was to tell him how friggin awesome it was. That wasn't a pimp WoTC statement as much as a pimp my friend statement, and to let people not miss quality writing because of the brand name.

I guess I'm waiting with an open mind. I think it has potential, and adopt a "wait and see" strategy. Who knows, I may even be running my own game with it sometime this month, so I can give DM feedback later on.

Zenfinite

sauromatian
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Posted: Thu Jun 05, 2008 4:44 pm

Aneoth wrote:TSR's OD&D Never used such a system. Nor did TSR's D&D/AD&D.

It's there all right, pp. 7-11 of Blackmoor 1975.

Aneoth wrote:That system was and still is used in RuneQuest.
And of course it was created what..... 30 years ago?
First Edition by Chaosism 1978....

Considering that it also uses a starting list of fundamental attributes for PCs, which sort of approximates D&D's system, RUNEQUEST! becomes in effect the road-not-taken.

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