cabala wrote in Random Thoughts or OT Chit-Chat Thread:It is amazing that people who grew up and played D&D in the so called "classical era" feel that it only existed for a brief time and was on the decline by '82. I didn't start playing until '89-90 and went from classic D&D straight to 2nd edition, as it was just released of course but D&D, AD&D still seemed huge. Seems like most of TSR products were released between early 80's and through the 90's. TSR was still releasing product after product, is it just the early success that carried them through and allowed for the revenue to release all of the products which ultimately drove their demise since sales of those products were dismal?

This gets entirely into where D&D players are pretty much divided up into when they started playing and what version they started playing with.  Someone can correct me, but I started playing in 78-79 and I divide it up like this:

1. Pre-AD&D, White Box and supplements (pre-78)
2. D&D explosion, 1st edition (79-85 or so)
3. D&D revival 2E (late 80s/early 90s, intro FR, start of TSR FR novels)
4. D&D revival 3E/WOTC (2000-2004)

I think you can pretty much divide most D&D players, whatever their rules systems, into one of those four eras.  So Cabala you were a #3 on my list and I knew quite a few people who jumped into D&D right about this time after a somewhat fallow period from the time EGG left TSR to the introduction of the Forgotten Realms.  

I think when Jon and others talk about a Classical Era and and sales they are mostly talking about those big years that literally drove the hobby until bad business decisons started taking their toll in the mid-90s.  The boom years created a name brand that was able to carry the company once sales got soft for another 15 years or so.  So while to those of us playing and buying product it looked like business as usual, there was a slow and steady drip of bad sales and bad decisions that couldn't keep up with the name value of the product and that culminated in TSR shutting down for several months and WOTC buying them lock stock and barrel in the late 90s (which then led to 3E and the second revival).  There is a ton out there written about the excesses of TSR which led to their downfall but I'll just leave it at this for right now.

Mike B.

It's also not uncommon for someone to be pushed out of a controlling role when the company he or she started gets bigger and acquires stockholders, board of directors, and lots of moving parts.  What doubly sucks is that EGG had some bad times after the ouster (getting sued for Mythus, for example) and wasn't able to replicate his success due to events beyond his control.

Mike B.

Bracton wrote in Random Thoughts or OT Chit-Chat Thread:Jon, that really is a great piece of journalism/history.  It's a truly sad tale, though given how TSR was run whomever was in charge, I suspect that a bad end was likely inevitable.  There's a reason why the founders of most start-ups eventually step into non-managerial roles.  Visionaries are typically poor hands at running a business.  The challenge, seldom met, is to match a visionary with someone who both can run a business and also respect the vision.

I enjoyed reading it as well.  Very similar circumstances to what happened to Nolan Bushnell at Atari.

Very good points, and yes my thoughts were more directed to the article's perspective not necessarily player's perspective but it is a good distinction and not one I made in my post. Somewhat semantics to say "feel" is not the right word, as I wasn't intending to imply emotion just the sentiments at the time. Even you say, "others may 'feel' differently" regarding the topic/perspective.

Off topic, yet related to the recent JP/"Ambush" thread...

Has anyone played the Dangerous Journeys and/or Lejendary Adventure series?  Can you give us your impression of those systems, and if Mythus was really that close to D&D (I've read it was far from it)?  I would think that anything EGG created/touched would be gold...

~throwi

Bracton wrote in Random Thoughts or OT Chit-Chat Thread:You wrote that one of the directors abstained in the vote to terminate Gary.  If Sommer made the motion and Huber seconded (and I presume Gary voted no), does that mean that one of the Blumes abstained?  If so, do you know why?

So, the board meeting minutes don't record how each individual voted, just the final counts. However, if I had to guess, I'd guess it would be Brian who abstained. I did spend some small amount of effort trying to answer that question, as it does seem to be an important one, but all I can offer is a guess.

Bracton wrote in Random Thoughts or OT Chit-Chat Thread:Are either Sommer or Huber still alive?  If they are, did you try to interview either of them?  Given that Gary was both the public face and the founder of TSR and D&D, it seems odd that they, as independent directors, would vote (and, in fact, conspire) to terminate him.  It would be interesting to know their thinking and motivation, as outsiders, in acting the way they did.

Do remember the letter I show in the first section of the piece, and the narrative about the conflict between Gary and the board over royalties, copyrights and trademarks. As far as I can tell, since he acquired controlling interest, Gary had done little to endear himself to the board: his ultimatum over the publication of works (like the upcoming Oriental Adventures) must have been a sore spot when the company was so cash-strapped. I think Williams effectively made them a better offer: more predictable governance, someone whose motivations the board could better understand. Once Gary no longer held controlling interest, I suspect his removal was inevitable.

Huber is, as far as I know, alive, and actually not impossible to contact. He's retired from practicing law now, of course. I have not reached out to him personally. You may know that my method more or less is blind to later testimony about events decades passed, so, that's perhaps a job for someone else. I haven't had much luck tracking down Sommer.

That is a fantastic article - an interesting read which manages to set out the position.  The only question it leaves unanswered for me is what the disagreements between Williams and Gygax were after Williams came on board in March 1985.  I wonder if we will ever know.

increment wrote in Random Thoughts or OT Chit-Chat Thread:
Huber is, as far as I know, alive, and actually not impossible to contact. He's retired from practicing law now, of course. I have not reached out to him personally. You may know that my method more or less is blind to later testimony about events decades passed, so, that's perhaps a job for someone else. I haven't had much luck tracking down Sommer.

Still interesting to see what he would say, might drop a bombshell no one has ever brought up.  Or still have personal correspondence dating back to that time (doubtful, but heck I have letters and such from 30 years ago).  Or, it might be of so little interest to him he's never thought of it again, who knows.

Mike B.

The new article is definitely a great piece, because it's a representative case where the participants' opinions are inherently biased and get in the way of the buried facts.  I've seen uglier business stories than TSR's (especially in court records), but I think this is a nicely neutral (dare I say iconoclastic) piece that lays out the facts in a way that the Sacco interview, the Familiar zine, the old Gygax site Q&A, etc. obscured through allusion and outright omission.  I doubt we'll ever see the BB or LW side of the story in print, but this piece is a much better and more cohesive history than we had to date.

Thanks!