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Badmike
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Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 12:07 am

sauromatian wrote:
There are substantial differences in how this was portrayed in the American press, vs. the rest of the world. From the US, I read that Knox and Sollecito called the police, & were waiting for them when a second police agency showed up with Kercher's cell phones. In news stories from outside the US, I read that the police with the cell phones showed up, & then 20 minutes later, Knox and Sollecito called the first police agency. Two completely different sequences of events, leading to different conclusions in the court of public opinion.

Then we have the supposed motive. In the US, the stories always mention the theory about a sex game gone awry. The prevalence of this bit suggests that Italian prosecutors were obsessed with pure speculation of the wildest & implausible sort. This is mentioned with much less frequency in the foreign press, where it is presented as one of many hypotheticals.

So sure, if you only hear one side of a hotly contested issue, those on the other side appear to be monsters. If you live in the NW US, ground zero for pro-Knox sentiment, the issue must seem clear as day.

But as a basic vehicle for prosecution, you have to have things like Opportunity, Motive, Evidence, Witnesses, etc. When you look at the case objectively, I guess Opportunity is the only one of these present. There was no evidence, no motive, and no witnesses unless you include those that were coerced by Italian police.

I don't to pretend we don't have problems in the US. Dallas County has recently released up to two dozen people wrongly convicted in the 80s for various violent crimes, and they are being released as stored DNA evidence is finally being tested and proving them innocent. These were people in prison for 20+ years looking at another 20+ years. Of course, like the Knox prosecution, most of them were tried on the flimsiest of evidence (all circumstantial), no witnesses, no DNA, no motives...and ironically, the fact Dallas County kept evidence for decades has led to the release of many of these men as DNA testing proved them innocent. In the end, both Knox and these men were chosen because they were convenient targets. Knox was luckier than these men because of the presence of social networking which allowed her family to bring publicity to the case, and the fact her parents were articulate and had money (although, I just saw on the news today, her family is over 1 million dollars in debt and every family member including grandparents, aunts, uncles, parents, etc has had to mortgage their house and all their belongings to pay for her defense....I only hope I could get that kind of support if something similar happened to me).

The Casey Anthony verdict if nothing else shows how far the American juror will bend over backwards to apply the "reasonable doubt" ruling in the case of someone I am 99.9 percent sure actually did what she was accused of...but in the end the prosecution just didn't have the evidence (although IMO they had enough circumstantial evidence, as well as motive and narrative, that they thought the could convict).

Mike B.

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Last edited by Badmike on Wed Oct 05, 2011 12:10 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 12:18 am

sauromatian wrote:
There are substantial differences in how this was portrayed in the American press, vs. the rest of the world. From the US, I read that Knox and Sollecito called the police, & were waiting for them when a second police agency showed up with Kercher's cell phones. In news stories from outside the US, I read that the police with the cell phones showed up, & then 20 minutes later, Knox and Sollecito called the first police agency. Two completely different sequences of events, leading to different conclusions in the court of public opinion.

Then we have the supposed motive. In the US, the stories always mention the theory about a sex game gone awry. The prevalence of this bit suggests that Italian prosecutors were obsessed with pure speculation of the wildest & implausible sort. This is mentioned with much less frequency in the foreign press, where it is presented as one of many hypotheticals.

So sure, if you only hear one side of a hotly contested issue, those on the other side appear to be monsters. If you live in the NW US, ground zero for pro-Knox sentiment, the issue must seem clear as day.

Still no facts. :roll:

"But I have watched the dragons come, fire-eyed, across the world."

mbassoc2003
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Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 3:16 am

There are disputable facts, and the facts in the case are disputable for two reasons. Firstly, the police in Italy are fairly primitive in mind and action, and whilst they are used to investigating such things, they are also used to being instructed how the case should unfold and what the outcome should be. Secondly, the money and influence dictate the manner inwhich evidence is handled, percieved and weighted, and no-one here is in possession of any of the facts in the case. We are only in possession of the information that has been filtered and fed to us by the press agencies, many of which have been influenced by a paid for PR agency and a marketting team employed by the Knox family.

Let us not forget, there were no facts to prove MJ interfered with anyone, and there were no facts to prove that OJ did anything. The facts were proven to be wrong in a court of law, and both OJ and MJ were proven to be innocent under US law.

The one fact that is undiusputable is that a horrific amount of money and influence was brought to bear with the sole purpose of achieving an innocent verdict. Not with the purpose of reaching the truth. The Knox family couldn't give a F about the thruth, and there is no way in hell she'll ever tell the truth. Maybe, America has some sympathy for the victim, but only AK and her family couldn't give a F, and never did from day one.

This week I've been mostly eating . . . The white ones with the little red flecks in them.

Badmike
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Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 9:47 am

mbassoc2003 wrote:
Let us not forget, there were no facts to prove MJ interfered with anyone, and there were no facts to prove that OJ did anything. The facts were proven to be wrong in a court of law, and both OJ and MJ were proven to be innocent under US law.

Don't confuse an innocent verdict with no facts. There was overwhelming evidence, including copious amounts of DNA, that OJ was a murderer. The Not Guilty verdict was more of a "Fuck You" to white people, the cops who beat Rodney King, the prosecutors, the DA's office, and the entire drawn out trial process than it was any sort of vindication of the facts. It was something a responsible jury virtually never does, a complete dismissal of the facts because they wanted to send a message. The jurors said as much afterwards in interviews. It would be interesting to see what kind of spin the Euro press gave to the OJ case, because now 20 years later there is little disagreement here in the US that OJ got away with murder (thankfully, now in jail for the rest of his life for other charges, karma is a bitch).

In the Michael Jackson case, I will agree money bought him a not guilty verdict. Poor families approached with offers of millions of dollars to drop cases. Again enough facts to convict (eyewitness testimony from victims and people who worked at his mansion) but little cooperation from the victims who were paid handsomely to refuse to testify.

If there was any evidence to convict Knox, it would have been presented in public in front of the appeal judges. Since nothing was presented except for the now discredited DNA, I'm assuming there was nothing there, because that was really the time to lay it all out. Things that probably hurt them were no murder weapon; no DNA; no motive; no witnesses; coerced testimony from the defendants; and coerced testimony from the actual murderer.

The Kercher family has the justice they deserve because the true murderer (Guede) is in prison. They should direct their further ire at the Italian authorities that bungled the case with shoddy police work and the UK and Italian media that lied time and again while trying to sensationalize events not even related to the trial.

Mike B.

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Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 9:54 am

I think we could all use a slice of cake right now.... :wink:

RPGâ€™s, D&D in particular has had a major influence in my life. Itâ€™s bonded me together with life long friends...itâ€™s that bond in life not just as friends, but in our jokes, our mannerisms, and what we find funny. Invincible Overlord

mbassoc2003
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Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 10:15 am

Invincible Overlord wrote:I think we could all use a slice of cake right now....

Badmike wrote:They should direct their further ire at the Italian authorities that bungled the case with shoddy police work.

Yep, but it'll not happen, because the Italians are notorious in Europe for giving the big FU to the European Union and EU Laws and legislation. They have their own morals and ethics and couldn't give a F. Society has a ribbon or corruption that extends from the lowly shopkeeper all the way up to who they choose to elect to public office and even head of state, It is a way of life for them, and what the Knox case has done, is shine the spotlight on the italian justice system and it's police force again.

That's probably a good thing, because they are in the sh!ts here in Europe and the difference economically, and differences in ethic and stages in the developement of their democracy and its public offices could be an influencing factor in whether or not they need to be cut loose from the Euro.

If Greece defaults, and it is seen as the country's own fault for not playing ball, and the outcome proves positive in stabalising the Euro and making the EU more secure in the eyes of the world economy, then Italy may follow the same route.

Political percetion is something the italians care much for, and this may not be the best time to be portraying a poor image. I'm sure that has nothing to do with it, but giving freedom to Knox didn't damage Italy. If only they could have done it without demonstrating how p!ss poor their police forces were.

Basicly, the further south you go, the more cowboys you get in power and the more rednecks you get in law enforcement. That's the way it is in Europe, anyway. Not just Italy, but Greece, Spain, Turkey, Portugal, etc. That's why the Med' is a haven for crimilas in Europe, and why most a lot of UK fraud, theft and organised crime has it's routes in these countries.

Is it the same in the US? Is crime polarised across the nation differently? Is competence distributed evenly? I do recall Jerry Springer once saying that Chicago was one of the most corupt states for public office, but I don't recall the context and I don't know how much of that was sour grapes.

This week I've been mostly eating . . . The white ones with the little red flecks in them.

Last edited by mbassoc2003 on Wed Oct 05, 2011 10:40 am, edited 2 times in total.

sauromatian
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Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 10:19 am

MetamorphosisSigma wrote:these claims have virtually no basis in reality. You seem to be judging the entire US legal system on a handful of cases ...

Certainly. If you want to see how American justice usually works, look at a case like this one:
http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/noto ... index.html
Which pretty much explains the US sentiment to Amanda Knox.

mbassoc2003 wrote:Chicago was one of the most corupt states for public office

Yep, so corrupt that we demoted it from a state to a city. However on appeal it was allowed to remain a style of pizza.

Badmike
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Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 11:28 am

MetamorphosisSigma wrote:
these claims have virtually no basis in reality. You seem to be judging the entire US legal system on a handful of cases ...

Certainly. If you want to see how American justice usually works, look at a case like this one:
http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/noto ... s/betty_go re/1_index.html
Which pretty much explains the US sentiment to Amanda Knox.

Still one of the most shocking murder cases in Texas history. John Bloom's book about the murder "Evidence of Love" is a classic (BTW, John Bloom later gave up investigative reporting and became the semi-famous B-movie reviewer Joe Bob Briggs). I remember when I was younger following the trial through the paper every morning, fascinating case, I can't think of anyone that wasn't shocked by the verdict (and how stupid it was).

I think this case (and the Cullen Davis trial) are an example of how American (particularly Texas) justice USED to work. I don't think there's a chance Candy would get off today if the same trial were to take place. The last 30 years have inured most potential jurors of the type of defense that was used in that trial, and people as a whole (especially anyone born since the Gore/Montgomery trail) are far more cynical about such crimes and more knowledgible about DNA and other evidence. Candy would be waiting in Hunstville for the needle if that murder were to happen today.

Is it the same in the US? Is crime polarised across the nation differently? Is competence distributed evenly? I do recall Jerry Springer once saying that Chicago was one of the most corupt states for public office, but I don't recall the context and I don't know how much of that was sour grapes.

I think any big city has the same problems of too much crime and not enough attention given to the conditions that cause the crime and the rights of the victims, leading sometimes to shoddy police work. The corruption in Chicago (and LA, and Houston, and New York, and Boston, and Dallas) is more political and endemic of how the powers that be acquire and maintain power in those situations. In regards to big cities in Texas, Houston was in a huge scandal when it was found their forensic lab was run by a lying incompetent for at least a decade, resulting in hundreds of possible false convictions. In Dallas, they have released over two dozen people arrested and convicted in the 80s for rape and assault based on DNA tests given recently to evidence that proved they were innocent. I'm sure most large urban centers have the same sort of bad marks on their record when it comes to dispensing justice.

Mike B.

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Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 2:15 pm

mbassoc2003 wrote:There are disputable facts, and the facts in the case are disputable for two reasons. Firstly, the police in Italy are fairly primitive in mind and action, and whilst they are used to investigating such things, they are also used to being instructed how the case should unfold and what the outcome should be. Secondly, the money and influence dictate the manner inwhich evidence is handled, percieved and weighted, and no-one here is in possession of any of the facts in the case. We are only in possession of the information that has been filtered and fed to us by the press agencies, many of which have been influenced by a paid for PR agency and a marketting team employed by the Knox family.

Let us not forget, there were no facts to prove MJ interfered with anyone, and there were no facts to prove that OJ did anything. The facts were proven to be wrong in a court of law, and both OJ and MJ were proven to be innocent under US law.

The one fact that is undiusputable is that a horrific amount of money and influence was brought to bear with the sole purpose of achieving an innocent verdict. Not with the purpose of reaching the truth. The Knox family couldn't give a F about the thruth, and there is no way in hell she'll ever tell the truth. Maybe, America has some sympathy for the victim, but only AK and her family couldn't give a F, and never did from day one.

Still...no...facts. :roll:

"But I have watched the dragons come, fire-eyed, across the world."

mbassoc2003
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Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 3:38 pm

FormCritic wrote:
Still...no...facts.

Same can be said about MJ. Ergo, he was never convicted of child abuse. All we have is a series of lying little kids and parents trying to abuse a man with money through the US legal system.

The facts in the case exist. The only difference is that some people dispute them. That does not mean they are not facts, it only means those with money and power can argue about the weight those facts should carry based on the amount of money they are willing to throw into spin.

Fact - K and S left footprints in the flat after M was dead.
Fact - S' DNA was found on M's bra clasp.
Fact - K's DNA found on the handle of a knife with M's DNA on the blade and it was in S' flat, not at the scene of the crime.
Fact - K lied to the Police about where she had been that night, but had no apparent reason to do so.
Fact - S also lied to the Police about what he'd been doing that night.

I won't bother mentioning any of the known facts about the italian police corruption, or that in other offices in the establishments concerned. I wouldn't want to find a horses head in my bed or an extradition order in the post.

Suffice to say, throw enough money and PR at any 'facts' when all involved are either dead or have an insentive to lie about it, and you can alter the truth. OJ prove that fair and square. If things get too hot, I'm sure the US Government will step in and defend her, and if they don't then a shed load more money can make evidence disappear. That is how money works. The only difference is the quantity needed to muddy the waters and conceal the crime.

Nationalism will get you off of a crime in the eyes of America, provided the crime is carried out in some god forsaken undeveloped country, just as assuredly as race will get you off of a crime if you have enough money and the dead girl is some white floosy. Money talks, and PR companies paid millions do what they are paid to do.

This week I've been mostly eating . . . The white ones with the little red flecks in them.

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Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 6:06 pm

Fact - K and S left footprints in the flat after M was dead.
Fact - S' DNA was found on M's bra clasp.
Fact - K's DNA found on the handle of a knife with M's DNA on the blade and it was in S' flat, not at the scene of the crime.
Fact - K lied to the Police about where she had been that night, but had no apparent reason to do so.
Fact - S also lied to the Police about what he'd been doing that night.

K and S didn't leave bloody footprints. Rudy Guede - the killer - did.

All DNA evidence was demolished by court-appointed experts.

The same experts showed forensically that police statements about the knife were false.

K was tricked and coerced into a confession that was thrown out for very good reasons. She didn't confess that she did the murder - in fact, she thought she was helping the police frame someone else. The Italian court tossed out the so-called confession.

S admitted that he was sleeping part of the night, and so could not be 100% guaranteed certain that K did not leave his bed in the wee hours of that morning. That is not lying to police. The police then told K that S definitely said she was gone, so maybe she had blocked out memories of having gone back to her apartment. That was a lie by the police - a part of their plan to coerce a confession - the same confession that the court tossed out.

Boom! No facts.

With no evidence left, all the prosecution could do was invective against Knox and Sollecito. Accordingly, their convictions were overturned. That is not nationalism or NW regionalism or unwarranted sympathy for Knox or any other sort of jaundiced view.

That is...(wait for it)...(wait for it)...a fact.

Okay. I'm done now.

"But I have watched the dragons come, fire-eyed, across the world."

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Posted: Wed Oct 05, 2011 11:48 pm

I really think people are vastly overestimating the power and money of the Knox family. Power? They have zilch. The mother is a math teacher and the father works at a Macy's store as a vice-president. Folks, this is not wealthy, they are decidedly upper middle class. Money? They are now a million dollars in debt, most of the money coming from all the relatives of the families (including the parents, grandparents, aunts, and uncles on both sides) mortgaging their houses and taking out bank loans...something, say, a Kennedy or Kardashian would not have had to do to afford the legal fees.

What they do have, however, is a drive to get something done, more power to them. I know if my kid or grandkid was in a situation where I thought they were falsely imprisoned I'd follow the same paths to make sure they got a fair shake and were eventually released.

Mike B.

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mbassoc2003
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Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 3:07 am

FormCritic wrote:Boom! No facts.

A fact remains a fact, regardless of whether or not its weight is disputed by the defense team. S' DNA was found on the bra clasp. It is a fact and it is not disputed by either the defence or the prosecution. Defence say it is there becasue the police put it there. Prosecution say it is there because S put it there. The fact that it is there is still a fact.

Same can be said for the other facts of the case. You are arguing about weighting of evidence here, and trying to say that because a court found her not guilty, the facts somehow are no longer real.

I don't think she stabbed M, but the evidence supports the supposition thst she was present either during or after the fact, panicked and attempted to conceal the crime. Then lied about it, got put down, and Mom, Dad and a goodly portion of America got together a sh!tload of money to pay for the decision to be overturned.

This week I've been mostly eating . . . The white ones with the little red flecks in them.

beasterbrook
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Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 3:29 am

Wow.. Steve Jobs is dead.. must of only just happened..

Brette:)

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mbassoc2003
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Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 3:39 am

Woaw! Geez. He wasn't that old either.

This week I've been mostly eating . . . The white ones with the little red flecks in them.

sauromatian
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Posted: Thu Oct 06, 2011 10:01 am

beasterbrook wrote:Wow.. Steve Jobs is dead..

So soon after Amanda Knox returned to the region? I think the FACTS speak for themselves, obviously she must have killed again.

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Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 12:06 am

Rangers and the Tigers in the ALCS! Hey, ARod and Tex, thanks for the choke job douchebags. God, when those former Rangers blow it just makes me warm and tingly all over.

Tomorrow should be a fun baseball watching night....two winner take all elimination games (Cards vs Phillies, Diamondbacks vs Brewers) to see who goes to the NLCS. Maybe we'll have some play by play in the chat tomorrow night....

Any side bets for the series, Bill Barsh?????? :lol:

Mike B.

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Posted: Fri Oct 07, 2011 12:20 am

Badmike wrote:Rangers and the Tigers in the ALCS! Hey, ARod and Tex, thanks for the choke job douchebags. God, when those former Rangers blow it just makes me warm and tingly all over.

Tomorrow should be a fun baseball watching night....two winner take all elimination games (Cards vs Phillies, Diamondbacks vs Brewers) to see who goes to the NLCS. Maybe we'll have some play by play in the chat tomorrow night....

Any side bets for the series, Bill Barsh??????

Mike B.

Um...wait...baseball season is still going on?

"But I have watched the dragons come, fire-eyed, across the world."

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