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Tszii
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Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2022 9:45 pm

The game wasnt designed to be any -ist or -phobe. Some things were short sighted. Of course, we now have the over-correction for every significant, and insignificant transgression.

I recall female characters got a -1 strength, is that right? Of course, why cant I RP a chick that stronger than any fighter in the party and need a -1 because "female?" Its a game right?

I thought I was reading the thoughts of a racist when I first read a post that referenced to Drow as black people. That isnt what they meant, and it only took another two seconds of reading to get the point. Clearly we could discuss the lore from the rest of our lives. There clearly should be evil races with exceptions and good races with exceptions. I can certainly see a game design with no exceptions for the hell of it, of course that would just be a rule made for breaking - because it would be fun.

In the end, I just know I am old. Two steps forward, one step back, and on it goes.

sauromatian
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Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2022 10:29 pm

Let's just hope no one tries to deconstruct the names Blackmoor or Greyhawk.

Skullhammer
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Posted: Sun Aug 07, 2022 11:42 pm

Chucho68 wrote in Random Thoughts or OT Chit-Chat Thread:
My answer to this question is yes. However, we learn and change. And the game lives on.

This is a question only you can answer for yourself.

This is an excellent question; however, by stating it, you make it conscious. We all have biases, men/males more than most, and white males more than almost everybody else.

We all need to work on ourselves. Good that WotC is dealing with these issues. And on you, mbassoc, for putting it on the table.

Héctor.

Lots of generalizing here. Lots of assumptions about people based on their race or gender. Personally, I believe that people see what they want to see.

mbassoc2003
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Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2022 5:05 am

So if Orcs and Drow were written as examples of ethnic minorities and they are cast as evil, they should not be. Drow and Orcs should be just like every other character class and integrated in to the whole happy bunch of adventurers. You could say the same for every other creature type. Using that logic, we should not question the motives or intentions of any of the creatures in the game until we've seen life through their eyes and walked a mile in there shoes as the saying goes.

If you are going to extrapolate and say Orcs and Drow are racist manifestations of EGG's undisclosed hatred of people and his white privilege, then the same goes for all 'evil' creatures in all history books, because they are all manifestations of mans' bias and hatred towards what they do not know.

Even chess? Or Go? Why do we allow there to be black? Why is white allowed to go first? Is chess and the players of the game enforcing hatred and racism? It could be played with purple and cyan? So why do the players choose to denigrate and perpetrate the hatred?

Or is it a case that the left are indoctrinated with a racist and divisive world view that makes them see everything in black and white?

This week I've been mostly eating . . . The white ones with the little red flecks in them.

Chucho68
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Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2022 12:26 pm

Skullhammer wrote in Random Thoughts or OT Chit-Chat Thread:
Lots of generalizing here. Lots of assumptions about people based on their race or gender. Personally, I believe that people see what they want to see.

Of course there is "generalizing" and "assumptions"! That is the point! However, I should say studying race and gender is extremely complex and we just do not have the space to delve depper.

"people see what they want to see" is an excellent definition of bias. Doesn't make you less racist, though.

Please do not infer or imply that I am calling anybody racist here (not saying anybody did; just to be clear). I am not qualified to make that assessment via long distance or even face-to-face. All my post aimed to do was comment on mbassoc's good questions and lift up a necessary conversation.

Héctor.

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Last edited by Chucho68 on Mon Aug 08, 2022 12:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Chucho68
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Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2022 12:47 pm

mbassoc2003 wrote in Random Thoughts or OT Chit-Chat Thread:So if Orcs and Drow were written as examples of ethnic minorities and they are cast as evil, they should not be. Drow and Orcs should be just like every other character class and integrated in to the whole happy bunch of adventurers. You could say the same for every other creature type. Using that logic, we should not question the motives or intentions of any of the creatures in the game until we've seen life through their eyes and walked a mile in there shoes as the saying goes.

If you are going to extrapolate and say Orcs and Drow are racist manifestations of EGG's undisclosed hatred of people and his white privilege, then the same goes for all 'evil' creatures in all history books, because they are all manifestations of mans' bias and hatred towards what they do not know.

Even chess? Or Go? Why do we allow there to be black? Why is white allowed to go first? Is chess and the players of the game enforcing hatred and racism? It could be played with purple and cyan? So why do the players choose to denigrate and perpetrate the hatred?

Or is it a case that the left are indoctrinated with a racist and divisive world view that makes them see everything in black and white?

I do not think EGG, DA, or any of the early RPG writers explicitly/intentionally 'wrote' some races or genders in a discriminatory way. That is why some biases are implicit. Are there implicit biases in D&D and other early RPGs? No doubt. Do we need to account and deal with this? Absolutely. Does that make EGG or anybody else associated with RPGs racist? That is a question everybody should ask of themselves.

Now, to compare writers of history to writers of fiction is quite the stretch. However, there are implicit biases in ALL writing, including historiography. For millennia, Western history was overwhelmingly written by white (European, Christian, rich, white-skinned) cisgendered/heterosexual men/males; written history then was skewed toward their point of view. Howard Zinn was one of the first to openly talk about this, at least to my knowledge. Then again, Zinn was also biased and can be critiqued.

I do not follow your extrapolations to other games but there are some curious issues there. Why *is* white allowed to go first? Is it convenience or is there something deeper? Indeed, why not flip a coin?

I am not sure why you mention 'the left' is 'indoctrinated' yet not 'the right'. If you are implying my politics, let me be clear: for me, racism (and sexism and a bunch of other 'isms') is in both sides in the "world", especially the Western world, because racism is about power not politics or even skin color (the latter is called colorism). One thing I should say though: people are not indoctrinated to see the world as racist - the world already is. Seeing the world as "black and white" is precisely what we ALL should avoid.

Peace, Héctor.

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Last edited by Chucho68 on Mon Aug 08, 2022 1:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Sir Kill Alot
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Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2022 12:59 pm

mbassoc2003 wrote in Random Thoughts or OT Chit-Chat Thread:...Even chess? Or Go? Why do we allow there to be black? Why is white allowed to go first? Is chess and the players of the game enforcing hatred and racism? It could be played with purple and cyan? So why do the players choose to denigrate and perpetrate the hatred?

Or is it a case that the left are indoctrinated with a racist and divisive world view that makes them see everything in black and white?

Chess in its current form is 600 years old and dates back 1500 years including its original Indian form. A couple of hundred years ago it was player choice, if you moved first, you had your choice of color. Black for the longest time was the color that many top players played back then as well. I'm not familiar with GO but it may be older than Chess. I guess what I'm trying to say is that this stuff changes over time. The board itself was colorless at one time. The whole racist stuff is pushed by individuals or groups that do nothing but stir up controversy. They themselves should be left in the dustbin of history and not be given the credibility nor the visibility they yearn for.

-SKA

Chucho68
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Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2022 1:08 pm

Sir Kill Alot wrote in Random Thoughts or OT Chit-Chat Thread:
Chess in its current form is 600 years old and dates back 1500 years including its original Indian form. A couple of hundred years ago it was player choice, if you moved first, you had your choice of color. Black for the longest time was the color that many top players played back then as well. I'm not familiar with GO but it may be older than Chess. I guess what I'm trying to say is that this stuff changes over time. The board itself was colorless at one time. The whole racist stuff is pushed by individuals or groups that do nothing but stir up controversy. They themselves should be left in the dustbin of history and not be given the credibility nor the visibility they yearn for.

-SKA

Good to know. Thank you. Information is the key.

H.

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mbassoc2003
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Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2022 3:39 pm

Chucho68 wrote in Random Thoughts or OT Chit-Chat Thread:I am not sure why you mention 'the left' is 'indoctrinated' yet not 'the right'.

Indoctrination is a prolonged education of an individual to think a certain way. It has a tendency to lean left because the vast majority of educational establishments in the western world are overwhelmingly leftward leaning, in both their academic curriculum and the political leanings of the faculty. Right leaning 'indoctrination' of the young must be instilled within the home. It doesn't have access to the same time (as usually adults work) nor access to the same level of funding. But so we are clear, indoctrination of the young to think in any manner is, to my mind, fundamentally wrong. It prevents them for evaluating the world around them and exercising rational thought.

Chucho68 wrote in Random Thoughts or OT Chit-Chat Thread:If you are implying my politics...

I absolutely am not addressing anyone's individual politics at all, and I apologize if it comes across that way.

Chucho68 wrote in Random Thoughts or OT Chit-Chat Thread:..., let me be clear: for me, racism (and sexism and a bunch of other 'isms') is in both sides in the "world", especially the Western world, because racism is about power not politics or even skin color (the latter is called colorism). One thing I should say though: people are not indoctrinated to see the world as racist - the world already is. Seeing the world as "black and white" is precisely what we ALL should avoid.

This is where we disagree. I think if an individual is taught to look for racial division and boas in everything they see, To look at everything in the world through a lens of division and divisiveness, to seek out fracture and categorize everything into pigeon holes based on sex, ethnicity, skin colour, socio-economic background etc., then they are going through life seeking out racial division and will always find it, or create it, even when it does not exists. The 'need' many on the left have to have everything labelled and categorized by gender, sex, ethnicity etc. is fundamentally racist and sexist.

This is why everything that exists in the world is sexists and racist to some people. It is the world they wish to see, and many spend their lives dedicated to painting it in their' image.

This week I've been mostly eating . . . The white ones with the little red flecks in them.

mbassoc2003
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Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2022 3:53 pm

With all the technology available to us for the past century, why do we still write on white paper with black ink? Why have we not changed our municipal laws that say we must write with black ink? Why do we consider white to be clean and virginal? Why when we do something bad do we have a black mark against our name, and why when you don't like someone do you black ball them from an institution?

More importantly, why are we teaching our children that all these things are racist?
And that if they do agree, then they are secretly racists and need to reassess their education?

This week I've been mostly eating . . . The white ones with the little red flecks in them.

Plaag
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Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2022 4:14 pm

mbassoc2003 wrote in Random Thoughts or OT Chit-Chat Thread:With all the technology available to us for the past century, why do we still write on white paper with black ink? Why have we not changed our municipal laws that say we must write with black ink? Why do we consider white to be clean and virginal? Why when we do something bad do we have a black mark against our name, and why when you don't like someone do you black ball them from an institution?

More importantly, why are we teaching our children that all these things are racist?
And that if they do agree, then they are secretly racists and need to reassess their education?

Can you not fucking Google with all this time you have to write so much.

They bleach wood pulp to break down the lignin. Wipe your ass with tree bark and tell me how that feels.

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mbassoc2003
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Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2022 4:34 pm

That’s my point.
Labelling everything as racists is both ignorant and fundamentally racist.
I just don’t see how D&D is a racist game, but then in the 80’s I didn’t see how it was fundamentally evil either.

This week I've been mostly eating . . . The white ones with the little red flecks in them.

Chucho68
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Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2022 7:19 pm

Plaag wrote in Random Thoughts or OT Chit-Chat Thread:
Can you not fucking Google with all this time you have to write so much.

They bleach wood pulp to break down the lignin. Wipe your ass with tree bark and tell me how that feels.

ShaneG.

Not sure what happened here but this post is funny AF.

Héctor.

Habent sua fata libelli

Sir Kill Alot
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Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2022 8:50 pm

The FBI is out of control. I have completely lost all faith in the entity. I'll shut up now or the fkrs will show up at my house and take all my D&D shit.

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Posted: Mon Aug 08, 2022 9:13 pm

Chucho68 wrote in Random Thoughts or OT Chit-Chat Thread:
Of course there is "generalizing" and "assumptions"! That is the point! However, I should say studying race and gender is extremely complex and we just do not have the space to delve depper.

"people see what they want to see" is an excellent definition of bias. Doesn't make you less racist, though.

Please do not infer or imply that I am calling anybody racist here (not saying anybody did; just to be clear). I am not qualified to make that assessment via long distance or even face-to-face. All my post aimed to do was comment on mbassoc's good questions and lift up a necessary conversation.

Héctor.

I don’t prescribe to original sin. As an individual, I’ll be judged by my actions or inactions, not by my physical characteristics. It’s impossible to have a meaningful conversation with someone who will discount my thoughts and opinions because I happen to be a of certain race or gender.

When you say that my observations are based on my bias, does that no apply to any individual offering their observation (including yourself)? And if you say that I have more bias because of my gender or race, is that not ironically biased?

mbassoc2003
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Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2022 3:29 am

Skullhammer wrote in Random Thoughts or OT Chit-Chat Thread:
I don’t prescribe to original sin. As an individual, I’ll be judged by my actions or inactions, not by my physical characteristics. It’s impossible to have a meaningful conversation with someone who will discount my thoughts and opinions because I happen to be a of certain race or gender.

When you say that my observations are based on my bias, does that no apply to any individual offering their observation (including yourself)? And if you say that I have more bias because of my gender or race, is that not ironically biased?

No, that's brainwashing, and that is exactly the problem. People are being brainwashed to see a certain sex, age, ethnicity, and attribute evil characteristics to those things, and if it is pointed out that there is no evidence that they exits, or they are asked to produce evidence, they say, "Well, they hide it. It is hidden. They may not even know they are hiding it. But of course they are evil, because... Well, can't you feel it? Can't you feel it all around?"

I don't believe that D&D was written with racist undertones. I realize that the left in the US have been on a crusade to paint D&D as racist for more than a decade now, and that they have made great headway in destroying the game that we grew up with. For me it is enough to preserve the game I knew and played. I'll leave the racists to fight among themselves about how they want race and gender played in 5e.

This tends to be something we watch from afar. The US obsession with race. It was just alarming to see it front and centre in the UK news, like getting flicked with dog shit watching kids fighting in a park. It popped the bubble so to speak, and now its coming here (the UK).

This week I've been mostly eating . . . The white ones with the little red flecks in them.

mbassoc2003
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Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2022 5:08 am

Sir Kill Alot wrote in Random Thoughts or OT Chit-Chat Thread:The FBI is out of control. I have completely lost all faith in the entity. I'll shut up now or the fkrs will show up at my house and take all my D&D shit.

Because they raided Trump's home?
Aren't they just doing what they are told to do?

This week I've been mostly eating . . . The white ones with the little red flecks in them.

sauromatian
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Posted: Tue Aug 09, 2022 5:59 am

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