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Need to hire an artist for 2nd Edition AD&D product
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Agent Cooper
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Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 9:35 am

deimos3428 wrote:Guys, please take the flame-war elsewhere.

It's not that I don't love a good flame-war, I just don't like foreign wars. Now, if someone wants to get into it with me over which PHB has the best stitching -- bring it on.

1. He posted a message on an internet forum.
2. He got responses to his message from people on said forum.
3. Welcome to the internet.
4. My PHB is so beat up, I honestly don't know WHAT is holding it together. Probably love.

The owls are not what they seem...

Jaybird216
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Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 2:08 pm

Halaster Blackcloak wrote:So where Jaybird's venom and fury come from is beyond me, but perhaps he has issues or something, or maybe he was told to bring in the hellfire from the goofy powers that be at DF.

Speaking quite frankly, no one was more surprised at the venom which resulted from our amiable conversation than I am, HB. You contacted me back in 2006 or 2007, asking for some work. I responded that I was too busy for free work, and you asked about my rates. I supplied them (they are QUITE reasonable), and never heard from you again. I figured you weren't interested and went on my merry way -- It happens. No hard feelings either way.

Several months ago (about 2 years after our discussion), I was vainly googling myself (I'll admit it) and a link came up to your BIP forums. It was neither of the links I attached above - the original seems to have vanished. However, that post was scathing. You were ranting to your crew about how flaky, idiotic, unrelaiabe, money-grubbing, etc artists are and you mentioned me by name. The context given was that I was chief amongst these talentless, hack mercenaries who dare call themselves "artists".

I'm not going to lie, I was furious. I had never done anything to wrong you, aside from truthfully telling you that I was too busy for free work. I fancied tearing onto your boards with both barrels of the flame-thrower roaring, but made myself calm down first. Really, what would it have accomplished? I showed the thread to a few of my artistic cohorts and rationalized that anyone who read and was moved by your personal attacks was someone I wouldn't want to deal with anyway. I convinced myself that you were actually doing me a favor.

However, when I saw your post here (and no, I am not a nefarious agent of DF - that place annoys me more often than it entertains me) I couldn't help but interject. I did take your slander personally, but it is hardly a vendetta.

Your repeated point that the BIP project is a freely-distributed volunteer project and a combined labor of love is completely and 100% valid. I truly do hope it's successful - but you shouldn't blame others who don't share your same passion. We all have lives, commitments and varying areas of interest.

Now, I won't make excuses for anyone. I'm sorry that you've been burned repeatedly by flaky artists. Stereotypes truly are swaddled in fact - there's no denying it. But as bbarsh pointed out above, you attract more bees with honey than with vinegar. Also, sadly, some people don't view volunteer work as their #1 priority. Not excusing them, just stating a fact.

Needless to say, I'm not now and will never be interested in working with you for any amount of money. If you want to believe that it's because I'm a money-grubbing hack or an intarweb secret agent, then you should seriously reconsider which one of us has issues. I merely have pride.

Thank you.

JB

Jason Braun
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Jaybird216
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Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 2:19 pm

Halaster Blackcloak wrote:Last I recall talking to you, it was very amicable and friendly. And I have never personally slandered you or ripped on you or said anything bad about you. I'm not sure where you got that idea. As far as I'm aware, there is not and never has been a problem between us, or any animosity whatsoever. So I truly am puzzled by all this.

As stated above, the thread on *your* boards has since disappeared - so whoever cares enough about this whole internet shouting match will have to take my word for it -- or not, whatever. I want to say I saw it in June or so. But the things you said were very pointed and disrespectful and named me personally. If you sincerely do not remember posting them, and do not know what happened to the thread in the interim, then the lapse of memory should be of some major medical concern.

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Gladiator27
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Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 7:29 pm

For what it's worth, I read the exact post of BH's that Jay is referring to and Jay is 100% correct...it wasn't kind. The fact that it's no longer there speaks volumes. I'm betting BH got a clue that it could come back to haunt him, so he got rid of it.

And to BH, contrary to what you think artists have to go through to produce a piece of "simple line art," much less 50 pieces of it, it's obvious you're oblivious to the whole process. If it's such a simple task...why don't you do it? If writing is so much harder to do (as you've mentioned multiple times) why haven't you done the artwork for your project? I mean, it's easier, right? Why haven't the other people that have done the other incredibly hard jobs...ya' know, like proof-reading and research (while monotonous and time consuming, not exactly college degree skill sets,) done the artwork for you yet?

Could it be because you can't?

There's a reason the other task for your project have been taken care of at this point. The reason is the vast majority of those jobs can be done by the average gamer or RPG enthusiast, if given the inclination. The same cannot be said for the art. That's not being egotistical as you like to refer to artists, that's just plain fact. Out of 100 people that like and or play RPG's, probably 10 to 15 of those people could produce quality art for your project. I'm not talking stick figure doodles, I'm talking about you describing "a weather worn dwarf drawing back his battle axe, getting ready to cleave a hill giant's shin as the giant yanks the dwarf's halfing buddy up by his buster browns with a look of fear on his face, complete with a forest background to include a waterfall" sort of drawing. It takes a talent or skill to do that. If everybody could do it, it would be common....unfortunately for you, it's not.

What you want for your project from a legitimate artist is gonna cost you, plain and simple. If, and it's a gigantic IF, you can find an artist that's just starting out and basically just trying to test the waters and get his feet wet, you might get a good handful of pieces for free. Now 50 pieces?!!! With your demanding demeanor and the fact that you've already made it very well known your thoughts towards "egotistical artists," you'll be lucky if you get a single piece of art done for your project at this point.

Deadlord
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Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 7:55 pm

Gladiator27 wrote: I'm not talking stick figure doodles.

I actually draw excellent stick figures. Straight lines, perfectly round heads, the works.
Artists suffer from the same stigma as people in my field. You'll always get certain people who think it should be done for free, and that it is simple.

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JohnGaunt
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Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 8:00 pm

This thread shows that the RPG world is a very small place. Publishers, writers, and artists should always be on their best behavior lest their past come back to haunt them.

The Acaeum has been peaceful for a month or two. Now it has to import flamewars from DF and BIP?

Prufrock
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Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 8:00 pm

I have comissioned many pieces from Jaybird and have been extremely happy with artwork he produced.

Initially I was very interested in another Undermountain product, but now I will not go near it. I do not think I will ever support any project with Halaster associated with it.

Martin

Halaster Blackcloak
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Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 8:17 pm

I'm not trying to keep the argument alive or anything, but I did want to respond to a few charges.

Jaybird wrote:

Speaking quite frankly, no one was more surprised at the venom which resulted from our amiable conversation than I am, HB. You contacted me back in 2006 or 2007, asking for some work. I responded that I was too busy for free work, and you asked about my rates. I supplied them (they are QUITE reasonable), and never heard from you again. I figured you weren't interested and went on my merry way -- It happens. No hard feelings either way.

I remember that as well. I sorta recall telling you I'd get back to you if and when we decided to pay for art, which at the time we weren't really keen on doing. I'm not a frequent poster here or at Rob's forum, so we sorta fell out of touch, and I thought everything was cool.

Several months ago (about 2 years after our discussion), I was vainly googling myself (I'll admit it) and a link came up to your BIP forums. It was neither of the links I attached above - the original seems to have vanished. However, that post was scathing. You were ranting to your crew about how flaky, idiotic, unrelaiabe, money-grubbing, etc artists are and you mentioned me by name. The context given was that I was chief amongst these talentless, hack mercenaries who dare call themselves "artists".

I do recall going off about artists, and admittedly often! It's just so frustrating because so many artists seem to have over-sized egos. Or are indeed flakey and undependable. We've had lots of bad experiences, trust me. And I know it's not always the best thing to speak in generalities, but as you said, stereotypes do originate from a kernel of truth in most cases.

I've never publicly targeted any artist that I can remember, and especially not you. We have of course had words about a few of the artists who dicked us over, but only in the private developers forum.

Your repeated point that the BIP project is a freely-distributed volunteer project and a combined labor of love is completely and 100% valid. I truly do hope it's successful - but you shouldn't blame others who don't share your same passion. We all have lives, commitments and varying areas of interest.

True. But many of us at the BIP Project have seen an undeniable pattern of egotism amongst artists that simply does not exist with other types of talent. No one, and I mean not one single person, who I've approached to do cartography, proofing/editing, layouts, research, or any other assignment has ever asked about getting paid. Never. Not once. Except artists. And most of them do expect payment. They claim to be excited and happy to be part of the project, but what they're really happy about is a paycheck. It's as if artists tend to have a different mindset altogether than other types of talents. I can't explain what I observe, I can only comment on it.

Now, I won't make excuses for anyone. I'm sorry that you've been burned repeatedly by flaky artists. Stereotypes truly are swaddled in fact - there's no denying it. But as bbarsh pointed out above, you attract more bees with honey than with vinegar. Also, sadly, some people don't view volunteer work as their #1 priority. Not excusing them, just stating a fact.

I understand that. And that is the point I think no one ever seems to get. I myself certainly have more urgent things to do in life than write, proof, and develop an AD&D project. I sometimes wish there were 72 hours in a day, because there's not enough time to do it all. But because it's something I enjoy and am excited about, I keep moving forward with the project. I'm not asking an artist to stop spending time with family or quit his job. Doirche (our cartographer) has been MIA for weeks now because he's setting up an incredible Xmas light show at his home featuring 50,000 Xmas lights, so he's too busy at the time to do some map tweaks we needed. (If anyone is interested in what he's doing, you'll die when you see it...go to http://www.holdman.com and click the Xmas link for an example...just mindboggling!) I've been out saving lives, working, studying, job hunting, and trying to get through the Xmas From Hell. So I understand, people have lives. Well, some of us do. The rest of us (like me) try to have one. :lol:

I'm just looking for an artist who is equally excited and willing to be part of the team. See, that's precisely the problem I'm having with artists. Not one of them has ever joined the forums as a team member. It's like there's this elitism with them that I can't explain. No one is better than anyone else on the team. I can write, Doirche can do cartography, and McDeath is a researching monster! Varl is great at proofing and editing. And it's always a team effort. Until we come to art, then it's a whole different mindset.

Now keep in mind, I do not hate artists. I do envy them, that's for damn sure! I wish I could draw beyond mere stick figures. And even my stick figure drawings suck! :evil:

And I can understand a professional artist not wanting to work for free, to some degree. But non-pro artists who have regular jobs and draw just for fun...I don't get how they can insist on charging for their work when it's supposedly for a project they claim to be excited about being a part of, even when they know that nobody else on staff is getting paid.

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Halaster Blackcloak
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Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 8:39 pm

Gladiator27 wrote:

For what it's worth, I read the exact post of BH's that Jay is referring to and Jay is 100% correct...it wasn't kind. The fact that it's no longer there speaks volumes. I'm betting BH got a clue that it could come back to haunt him, so he got rid of it.

I don't delete threads or posts, and I honestly don't remember any such post, but at this point it's he said/he said, so whatever. We can go on like that forever.

And to BH, contrary to what you think artists have to go through to produce a piece of "simple line art," much less 50 pieces of it, it's obvious you're oblivious to the whole process. If it's such a simple task...why don't you do it? If writing is so much harder to do (as you've mentioned multiple times) why haven't you done the artwork for your project? I mean, it's easier, right? Why haven't the other people that have done the other incredibly hard jobs...ya' know, like proof-reading and research (while monotonous and time consuming, not exactly college degree skill sets,) done the artwork for you yet?

For the same reason that artists don't write or do cartography. See, your post is perpetuating the very issue I describe. Nobody is saying that artists aren't talented. Certainly not me. I admit to deeply envying their skill. I can't draw, period. Everyone has certain talents and skills. So it's a team effort, sorta like the very premise of the game itself. :wink:

And yet it's always and only the artists who wants money, not the other members. Why is that? What makes a person who can draw inherently any more valuable than a guy who can write well or who can design maps well? He's not better, he just has a different skill set. Putting artists on a pedestal is called elitism. I doubt Gary Gygax could draw very well. But he sure could write! Purely for sake of analogy (I certainly wouldn't compare myself to Gary!), could you imagine Gary doing a free product, and the artist demanding payment because he's "more talented"?

Could it be because you can't?

Absolutely! I've always freely admitted that. In fact, I jokingly posted samples of my "art" (calling my stuff art is probably justifiably offensive to real artists :lol:

) and threatening to use my "art" if we can't find an artist. We all got a laugh out of it, and I secretly hoped someone would see my feeble attempts at art and feel sorry for me and offer to do some. LMAO! :lol:

So yeah, I know I can't draw. That's why I write, because I can write. I can't do cartography on a computer without wanting to hurl myslf out the window for lack of being able to get past Step One, so Doirche, who kicks ass on that aspect, does the cartography.

There's a reason the other task for your project have been taken care of at this point. The reason is the vast majority of those jobs can be done by the average gamer or RPG enthusiast, if given the inclination. The same cannot be said for the art. That's not being egotistical as you like to refer to artists, that's just plain fact. Out of 100 people that like and or play RPG's, probably 10 to 15 of those people could produce quality art for your project. I'm not talking stick figure doodles, I'm talking about you describing "a weather worn dwarf drawing back his battle axe, getting ready to cleave a hill giant's shin as the giant yanks the dwarf's halfing buddy up by his buster browns with a look of fear on his face, complete with a forest background to include a waterfall" sort of drawing. It takes a talent or skill to do that. If everybody could do it, it would be common....unfortunately for you, it's not.

The same applies to writing. How many "great" writers were there at TSR? Or in the gaming industry? Or in the fan community? Probably just as few as there are great artists. I personally know more people who can draw well than I know people who can write well.

What you want for your project from a legitimate artist is gonna cost you, plain and simple. If, and it's a gigantic IF, you can find an artist that's just starting out and basically just trying to test the waters and get his feet wet, you might get a good handful of pieces for free. Now 50 pieces?!!! With your demanding demeanor and the fact that you've already made it very well known your thoughts towards "egotistical artists," you'll be lucky if you get a single piece of art done for your project at this point.

Again, we're looking for 50 pieces of art. We're writing over 150 rooms. It's going to top out at probably over 200 pages. And there are dozens each of new spells, monsters, magic items, and developed NPCs. Far more work than drawing 50 pieces of line art, especially when you consider that more than half those pieces are tiny things like a drawing of a sword floating in blank space, or a tiny pic of a skeleton holding an axe with no background. Doodles, almost. Don't belittle the writing, because it's just as difficult as drawing, if not moreso.

And that word "free" is what bothers me. You're clearly of the mindset that we're looking for an artist to "do work for free". And that's not true. We're looking for an artist to join the team, who wants to contribute his particular skill the same way the rest of us are doing our part. At this point, we decided to simply pay for art because it's a timing thing. We're getting very close to finishing, and we need the art before we can do layouts and get it into final .pdf format. So instead of wasting tons of time trying to find an artist to join the team, we're actually looking to "hire" an artist, which means getting paid. Do you see the difference there? Because there is a huge difference.

Finally, I don't see this as a flame war, because I haven't seen anything directed at me that I'd consider a flame (although Jay came close on a few :wink:

), and I'm not flaming anyone, just trying to clarify things. And maybe find an artist, all this bickering notwithstanding.

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ATOM
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Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 8:55 pm

I read that posting from yourself berating Jaybird, that he was quite rightly upset about months ago, so I can also state that what Jay said was 100% true.Your volatile nature has got you banned from many RPG sites in the past few years, and unfortunately Halaster you have not learned anything.
What ever you post on the net forums is there for life, if you had calmed down a tad and not berated Artists on various forums your project would probably be finished by now.What artist is going to lend a hand when they read all the negative and spiteful comments you pepper your frequented forums with.Most Artists (especially Fantasy Artists) have a deep respect for their associates and fellow Artists, so much so that they will remember anyone berating particular Artists, even if they do not know them.
Artists work like anyone else for a living and need to be paid, but you just seem totally unable to comprehend that fact. You work with your project as an unpaid hobby, artists may work in a field that you deem "An unpaid hobby" but the Artists do it to pay the bills.Art sells books,magazines and games, you realise that yourself.Who would be interested in a project without any art? Try to learn from this, it was okay for you to personally alienate yourself, but now you represent a group of hard working guys that have committed themselves to your project and you have suceeded in making the projects completion harder for them because you have alienated yourself from the RPG Art community.
Apologise and make up, be a man and admit your wrongs, then things should hopefully improve.I want to see your project completed too.

Jaybird216
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Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 9:35 pm

Heya folks. HB extended an olive branch and we're moving the discussion to PM, like grown-ups. I think that everything that can be said has been said, though I do appreciate the vouchers for my character (as well as the fact that ATOM and Glad remember reading the phantom BIP thread).

John Gaunt, great point about internet posts in general. This is a very small pool we're all peeing in, and I'm sure that I, too, have been guilty of turning people off through various intarweb shenanigans.

Jason Braun
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Deadlord
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Posted: Sat Dec 12, 2009 10:54 pm

Funny you guys should mention that, I literally told my wife exactly that not two hours ago. We gamers do indeed have a small circle (comparatively), and VERY long memories.

If you hit a Rowsdower, you get to keep it.

Halaster Blackcloak
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Posted: Sun Dec 13, 2009 2:23 am

ATOM wrote:

Artists work like anyone else for a living and need to be paid, but you just seem totally unable to comprehend that fact. You work with your project as an unpaid hobby, artists may work in a field that you deem "An unpaid hobby" but the Artists do it to pay the bills.

But see, I do get that. But not all artists do art for a living. We're more or less targeting artists who don't do art for a living, but rather for a hobby, just like how I don't write for a living (well, sorta), but I do write for the project.

And it's funny, but the two artists we did find who actually wanted to participate without being paid were artists who do art full time for a living. Go figure.

Unfortunately, one nearly destroyed his drawing hand and the other was hit with family problems and had too much going on to do anything other than try to survive.

I'm still in touch with both, just seeing how they're doing, but not expecting any art from them.

I think the point that keeps getting glossed over is that we weren't looking to hire an artist. We wanted a fan who has artistic ability to join the team. No one on the team gets paid. That was the original intent, although nobody seems to understand that for some reason.

Now we're looking to hire an artist because we don't have time (or luck! :cry:

) to find an artist to simply join the team. So it's time to hire someone, unfortunately. Originally we wanted someone to work with the team, not for the team. Again, that's an important distinction.

And we have an ex-TSR luminary doing some work, free I might add, even though he does art for a living. So I guess it's just a strange world out there.

Try to learn from this, it was okay for you to personally alienate yourself, but now you represent a group of hard working guys that have committed themselves to your project and you have suceeded in making the projects completion harder for them because you have alienated yourself from the RPG Art community.
Apologise and make up, be a man and admit your wrongs, then things should hopefully improve.I want to see your project completed too.

Well, I think I made it clear that I don't hate artists in general, and that I was just venting about the bad experiences that tainted my view of many (not all) artists. However, I will apologize to any artists I offended, because that wasn't my intent. I understand that a few bad apples don't spoil the bushel. It just gets so frustrating sometimes that I end up going off more than I intend. So I hope everyone can move on.

And again, everyone on the project has been having lots of fun, and I encourage everyone to take a peek at the previews just to see the quality we're talking about. Doirche is going to post a review of some play testing that he did sometime after Xmas, so that should give some idea of the quality of the product. So far, everything coming back to me is good, so I hope everyone likes it because it's really a labor of love. Emphasis on labor sometimes. :lol:

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