Now, should I really think that the US is so full of religiously naive people?

Yes. The idiocy of the US knows no bounds.

guerret wrote:
Another amazing thing is that so far I haven't read a single story about trying to show that D&D was not evil by showing a gaming session. It would be the most logical solution. After all, Europe overcame religious naivety through logic...

Wouldn't work.  You see, from what I've read and been told by religious fanatics, just the act of playing is demonic without any overt worshipping of spirits.  Merely "pretending" to dabble in spells and such is just as damning in many religious theory  as actually trying to cast a spell.  It's not even the intent, it's the act itself. A "example" session would prove nothing to a  true believer except that they were right, you are a damned and lost soul for allowing yourself to get involved in such activity....

Mike B.

guerret wrote:Now, should I really think that the US is so full of religiously naive people?

"Full" like "almost everyone" or "a strong majority"?  No.

"Far more than any other '1st world' nation that I know of and possessed of enough political clout to really hold the country back on social issues"  Yeah, that's us.

Badmike wrote:You see, from what I've read and been told by religious fanatics
Mike B.

Speaking as a religious fanatic....let me interject:

The violence, focus on ugly thoughts and deeds and the frightening illustrations in D&D books (which you and I hardly even notice) is a legitimate concern for some people.

Remember that it was not only religious fanatics who were frightened and/or bemused by D&D.

Lots of people who never darkened the door of a church had the general impression that D&D would drive you nuts and cause you to kill people.

According to James Ward, the chief villains in this pack of misperceptions were.....defense attorneys!

During that particular era, every teenager who commited a violent crime had a lawyer who tried to claim that D&D made him do it.  According to James, a part of his job during that era was to travel about, testifying for the prosecution, to establish that D&D a) was a game, and b) wouldn't harm a squirrel, much less a teenage boy.

While I am sure there were some nefarious people who made money off of slandering D&D, most of the whacko claims were made by people with little to gain financially...but who felt compelled to warn people about a perceived threat.  Or, in possibly the most heinous case...a non-religious fanatic mother who needed to absolve herself from guilt over her son's suicide.

Ironically, it is the non-religious fanatics who give me most trouble as a teacher.  These are the people who believe that a child wearing pink camo pants is evidence of an unhealthy obsession with violence.  These are the people who want me to use illustrations of pirates...so long as none of the pirates have weapons.  

These are also the people who routinely make comments about Christians that they would never make about any other group.

My theory is that they are so used to talking to each other...and making extreme statements that are not challenged...that they have ceased to listen to the hateful things they say.

guerret wrote:But there's also the fact that interest in satanism has waned somewhat since the Seventies.

So what am I going to do with all my robes and goat skulls?  


Formcritic et al:
In my experience as a catholic, raised in that background in the NE US during the 80s when this was all going on,  the catholic community there didn't seem quite as bothered by all this.  In fact, I attended a catholic school in my junior and senior year of HS, and nobody seemed to mention this or care too much about it.  I mean, at school you were still considered a nerdy dork for playing and might get spitballs shot at you at lunch.  But I don't remember anybody telling us we'd burn in hell or anything.    As I mentioned in my earlier post, the only people I knew of first hand who were convinced the game was evil were the parents of a friend who happened to be Baptists from a very strict order.

As I recall during that time, the most vocal religous hysteria seemed to be coming from the protestants, mostly from baptist and evangelical christian churches based in the midwest and south.  And of course the TV preacher guys, Falwell and his ilk.

Please understand I don't mean to knock the protestant folks.  It just seemed to me that, as far as the whole D&D=evil issue,  the catholic church was a lot more sensible about the issue, or at least much less concerned about it.  At least they were in my neck of the woods.

Agent Cooper wrote:
So what am I going to do with all my robes and goat skulls?  


Formcritic et al:
In my experience as a catholic, raised in that background in the NE US during the 80s when this was all going on,  the catholic community there didn't seem quite as bothered by all this.  In fact, I attended a catholic school in my junior and senior year of HS, and nobody seemed to mention this or care too much about it.  I mean, at school you were still considered a nerdy dork for playing and might get spitballs shot at you at lunch.  But I don't remember anybody telling us we'd burn in hell or anything.    As I mentioned in my earlier post, the only people I knew of first hand who were convinced the game was evil were the parents of a friend who happened to be Baptists from a very strict order.

As I recall during that time, the most vocal religous hysteria seemed to be coming from the protestants, mostly from baptist and evangelical christian churches based in the midwest and south.  And of course the TV preacher guys, Falwell and his ilk.

Please understand I don't mean to knock the protestant folks.  It just seemed to me that, as far as the whole D&D=evil issue,  the catholic church was a lot more sensible about the issue, or at least much less concerned about it.  At least they were in my neck of the woods.

This is very much true.  Catholics are much less prone to this type of hysteria...partly because they rely more on Church authority than Protestants do.  They would just calmly wait for word on the matter...and since Catholic leaders have more to think about than the latest hysteria.......

We Protestants are just the opposite.  It's not that we don't have a Pope...it's that everyone is his own Pope.  (I just made that up by the way...not bad.)

Morons among the Catholics wait to be given the word on what to do.

Morons among the Protestants declare themselves Pope and begin to spread the word.

We non-morons find this painful and we don't like to be seen with these people, but what're ya gonna do?  Try reasoning with Brother Moron the Pope and his wife, the Popista.  Brother Moron seriously thinks God talks to him...and that means whatever you say must come from Satan.

Fortunately, these people really are just a visible and vocal minority.  It really isn't fun getting lumped in with them.

Agent Cooper wrote:
As I recall during that time, the most vocal religous hysteria seemed to be coming from the protestants, mostly from baptist and evangelical christian churches based in the midwest and south.  And of course the TV preacher guys, Falwell and his ilk.

.

And that's where I live, smack dab in the middle of the bible belt. So yeh, Religious Fanatics is what I said and what I meant. You guys on the west and east coasts just have no idea....the extent their ravings and practices affect the way life is lived in small towns in Texas, Oklahoma, Arkansas, etc.  You have to understnad there are a large amount of people in these parts that truly believe you will burn in hell if you don't go to their church, not just their religious denomination, but their personal church.  And that's coming from someone that considers himself religious.  

Back in the day 100% of the D&D hatred I saw was directed by reasons of religion.  I"m not saying there weren't other instigators, but not in my neck of the woods.

Mike B.

Hang with me.  I am about a spew a bunch of generalities.

Most people in America are becoming less concerned with religion.  Fewer people are going to church, people are giving less at church, the average age of people at church is increasing and there are fewer churches overall.  Along with this, people are not as religious or even spiritual as in the past.  There are plenty of exceptions, but the overall trend is obvious to pollsters and me.

I have heard it said that America is becoming more like Europe in terms of its religiosity and spirituality.  Morality overall is declining as well.  There is an increased emphasis in entertainment and the entertainment is increasing in sexuality and violence.

When D&D came out, there were a higher percentage of people in American society concerned about anything that potentially had to do with evil/Satan/witchcraft/etc...  There are still people who freak out over anything they don't understand, but the rationale usually has less to do with religion and spiritual concerns.  Yes, there are exceptions, but the nation is moving in this direction as Europe moved (and may be still moving) in this direction.  This is more true in certain parts of the country than others.  The Bible belt is hanging on to religion more than most parts of America.

This process of secularization is common to any business, any civilization, or any institution of higher education.  Look at Harvard and Yale.  They used to be seminaries.  Yeah, they still have divinity schools, but their education has way more to do with the cognitive than the practical.  It's a good education, but it has evolved into something very different from its original intent.  To be blunt, I highly suspect it's founding fathers would be horrified.

Secularization is not all bad.  In fact, it makes sense.  Some people try to reverse secularization with "revivals" and "remember the good old days."  Far as I can see, the good old days weren't all that good.  People died for lack of antibiotics.  Cars could only go 30 miles an hour.  Slavery was still in existence.  There was no D&D!  No matter how far you go back, the improvements we see today are indeed amazing, miraculous even.  I don't want to go back.

As our society has improved medically, economically, educationally, and so forth, there is less of a "need" for what we don't have.  Religion is an idea/phenomenon/whatever that fills gaps for lots of people.  And, even though we see and know of lots of examples of where religion has done harm, I personally believe there are more examples of where religion has done good, even great good.  And the times when religion has done great good has inspired me profoundly.

We can bash catholics for their pedophilia predators, but look at all the hospitals, orphanages, and schools they created!  Not that one incident of pedophilia is acceptable, but I think it's easy to argue that it wasn't the religion that resulted in the pedophilia, but the lack thereof.  Religion can go crazy stupid, but it also can go wildly wonderful.

Also, there are stupid people, even stupid fanatics, of all colors and stripes and cultures.  I don't know about you, but I know about some D&D people who embarrass me to no end(Coug, for example).  Overall, I find D&D people to be above average in intelligence and creativity.  I love The Acaeum because there are some great people on these forums who share one of my passions.  But there are all kinds of people in our hobby.

So, here's my point.  Religious expression is changing in America, and there has been and is a spectrum of expressions and viewpoints.  Do we judge religion by the best it has to offer or the worst?  Not that we weigh one against the other, but is what good religion has to offer so good that it's worth having?   For me, the answer is yes, and I hope you won't lump me in with those who you don't like.

Finally, I have found in my life that there are some people who have been so hurt by religion that they just can't get over it, and it has colored their view so thoroughly, they will likely never change.  It's not that I believe they can't change, but changing would be incredibly difficult.  If you are reading this, and you had something like that happen to you, I wish it hadn't.  There are no words I have to console you or change your mind.  There isn't anything I can say.  Even "I'm sorry." doesn't cut it by a long shot.  If you want me to say "I'm sorry" I will.  I hope the rest of your life is wonderful.

jasonw1239 wrote:Most rational people should be concerned about the influence of fundamentalists in society.

It is easy to ignore it by reasoning that they have the rights to their beliefs, but in many cases they try to impose their viewpoint on others. Especially in cases of using a backdoor into science classes through intelligent design.

The USA is not the only country that has fundamentalist and Christianity is not the only religion that has extremists.

Here is a link to a web site called Fundamentalists Say the Darndest Things (Top 100).

http://fstdt.com/fundies/top100.aspx?archive=1

Good luck getting even halfway through that list without beginning to worry about the people around you.  

Worrying about the people around you is a sensible precaution.

I'm reminded of what John Cleese said on an interview show about the protests surrounding "The Life of Brian"

The movie had originally been booked into around 100 theaters but after the protests it went to over 700. Cleese wanted to thank the protestors because in his words "They made me a rich man.".

The protests against D&D certainly helped the game far more than it hurt it.

Of course you have to be careful. Look what happened to "Father Ted".