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Badmike
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Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 4:28 pm

Sea-to-sky-games wrote:
While I don't agree with this sentiment entirely, it is nevertheless true that it makes sense for eBay, on the margin, to focus on the buyer.

Given that buyers are very fickle, the biggest challenge facing eBay is making sure people buy stuff on their site. If they start to lose their customer base, then eBay's success can quickly derail. After all, one of things that makes eBay great is not customer service or anything like that, but the scale of people using it. These network effects are critical.

On the other hand, sellers are not nearly as sensitive. eBay knows that if they offer sellers the best game in town (i.e. largest consumer base), then the vast majority will put up with slightly higher fees. Besides, some of these costs will be passed onto buyers in the form of higher initial prices, less timely customer service, refusal to use paypal, fewer shipping options, etc.

From a practical perspective, the effect of these changes is probably just equalizing the returns for online/offline businesses. Just anecdotal evidence from conversation around here -- with respect to gaming, at least -- seems to show that online stores have had it great for a while, while brick and mortars stores are out. Given the alternatives, I can't imagine very many sellers wanting to give up selling their wares on eBay over an extra few % on sales.

Again, I don't think it is entirely one-sided. But eBay holds more leverage over sellers than buyers, and so it should not be a surprise when they do choose to side with the latter.

The reason Ebay is in the toilet isn't because of sellers...it's because of buyers, specifically buyers who have been ripped off, or are scared of being ripped off, and won't do business with the site anymore. So it only stands to reason to make buyers experience more bulletproof and less upsetting.

Not that I agree with this, being mainly a seller, but I realize the sentiment behind the moves. They are rewarding their most established sellers, kicking their worst sellers in the nuts (hello, Cougie, who might go out of business a lot quicker now), and pretty much telling the buyer they are going to make them untouchable.

Unfortunately, as in the incident I am involved in with an idiot buyer, it's going to be the seller who pays the price for all the Cougars, Creeps and other shitheads...basically, because idiots like this were allowed to flourish, we (all sellers) are going to pay the price. It makes it even more necessary that we keep a nicely updated bad buyers list here in the Acaeum; the more unscrupulous buyers here will attempt to take advantage of the rules in their favor by ripping off as many sellers as they can. The only way to fight back is to block their ass premptively.

As STS says, the sellers can be treated however Ebay wants...we aren't going anywhere. Selling gaming items on Amazon is a joke. Some books and CDs might do better there, but for those of us mainly selling gaming items, it really isn't a very good alternative.

I do like some of the new policies. Some were a long time in coming. But giving the buyer too much power (they basically even have power on whether or not you will get a discounted final value fees price, since they can affect that by leaving you less than five stars) may come back to haunt them if sellers decide they have better things to do than kiss the ass of some shithead who makes demands and then threatens to leave them bad feedback, with no reprucussions. I'm toying with the idea of making insurance mandatory on all orders just to cover the one or two idiots that will crop us saying their packages are lost or damaged, knowing you will have to pay the price or they can screw you.

Mike B.

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Sardan
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Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 4:32 pm

Well I'm mostly a buyer but I have a sneaking suspicion that I like the feedback change. It should put paid to feedback retaliation and hopefully curb some of Cougar's antics.

bclarkie
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Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 4:39 pm

g026r wrote:I just thought of something: what's going to happen to the seller ability to block buyers based on negative feedback within the past X days? Or feedback below 0?

I mean, if you can't leave negatives or neutrals for buyers...

Christ, I barely sell, and even I think only leaving positives for buyers is a poorly thought out.

Its obvious they don't care. Ebay fails to realize(or refuses to acknowledge) that they created a large portion of the retaliatory feedback problem by implementing the mutual withdrawl option. Srangely enough according to thier own data as soon as they implemented that featture, retalitory feedback increased by 8 fold. The reason is that Sellers like Cougar knew once that was in place that they could play the odds when they treated people like shit, because they knew that if they got a neg they could turn around and retaliate and the chances were excellent that the buyer would recant and mutually agree to withdraw the negative. Since Ebay as usual had really no interest in monitoring the system people like Cougar beat it to death. Rather then realizing that a large part of the problem is the mutual witrhdrawl system, instead of trying to fix it or removing it altogether, they gave us no negative feedback left for buyers. :lol:

If they really wanted to fix things they would have set up a team of people as a third party mitigator to investigate mutual withdrawl claims. In order to have a feedback comment for withdrawl request removed it would have to be where only one person at that point would left a negative and the only reason is because it was left in error. If both parties had already left a negative, then the request to withdrawl would be automatically denied, no questions asked. So, in most circumstances requests would be denied with a little more than a cursory by the Ebay rep look to see the feedback left by both parties. That would help encourage people to communicate with each other before feedback was left and although it wouldn't completely eliminate the fear of retailitory feedback, it would certainly level the playing field against sellers such as "Diamond Dave Whitefield". The problem with that though is that Ebay would have had to actually spend some money and hire people to do that, which is certainly not something they are interested in doing. :roll:

I have come to the conclusion that Ebay is really all just a big scam to get your money, period. They want you to use them, but they under no cricumstances do they want to take any kind of an active role in thier own site, because that costs money.

All that Ebay really wants is your money and for people to shut the f*** up.

"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." -Neitzche

Xaxaxe
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Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 5:45 pm

Badmike wrote:As STS says, the sellers can be treated however Ebay wants...we aren't going anywhere.

In a big-picture sense, I'm not sure this is true at all.

Sellers are beginning to go elsewhere, actually. eBay had two straight quarters where fewer items were sold before finally reversing that trend with the most recent reporting period. Sellers, in general (or "on average," or however else the numbers can be parsed), are either selling fewer items, selling less frequently, or leaving the site altogether (or maybe "taking a long break").

+++++

In the smaller picture, though, I agree completely that I don't see a viable alternative for doing our little thing here ... eBay appears to have D&D sellers (and probably most collectors in general) in a nice little vise. Amazon can't do mixed lots or multiple items (not to mention it's not a site that has any connection to any sort of gaming), Yahoo is a joke (do they even do auctions any longer?), no one is really looking for a return to the Wild, Wild West days of the rec.games.marketplace service, a Google auction site is as much wishful thinking as is a college football playoff, niche auction sites have been tried and found wanting ... I need to stop; I'm getting depressed.

I'm not sure what the answer is ... or if there even is an answer.

+++++

Back to the bigger picture real quick. I wonder how many smaller sellers are, like me, are pretty much going to stop selling on eBay? I mean, honestly, what's my incentive for ever selling another book, CD, DVD or other media-related item on eBay? My fees just jumped way up, the stuff sells better on Amazon anyway, buyers can now leave any sort of feedback or do any sort of extortion they want to ... why would I have any interest in any of that? Yes, I'll still sell gaming items on eBay, but I'll be taking a lot of listings elsewhere ... and eBay will not be seeing a single penny from any of those.

Now I wouldn't blame anyone for thinking, "Big deal, Xaxie, you're just one guy; eBay won't miss you." Which might be true, if it weren't for the fact that the vast majority of sellers on eBay are small fish, just like me. Each of us small-timers has a lot to think about now ...

+++++

I've always laughed at the "eBay is doomed" scenarios that have popped up here over the years. I've even gotten into a couple of minor flame wars on the subject. But today is the first day that I'm not laughing about it: today's announcements are so over-the-top anti-seller that I honestly think sellers will begin leaving the site in droves. Just wait until those 8.75% final value fees start kicking in ... not to mention giving buyers all of the leverage in terms of feedback. I give it a year before an honest-to-God stampede of exiting sellers sends eBay stock even further into the toilet.

+++++

What a curious mixture of good and bad we're dealing with now. For all of the good things (free gallery photos, all of the specific changes that will impact dickheads like Cougar, etc.), there are also some unfortunate things that will affect all of the reliable D&D sellers here (Mike, Brian, the Burntwires, etc., etc. ... even myself, at least back when I sold tons of D&D stuff). Sometimes, it seems like it's hard to catch a break.

Saxonangel
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Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 5:48 pm

If anything the feedback debacle is going to hit those sellers who ship internationally.

Before Xmas, Blackmoor and I toyed with the idea of shipping air only to international buyers. This was due to the unrealistic expectations of an absurdly impatient (and perhaps mentally unstable) french buyer.
Now it's well into the new year and we are struggling with a number of Australians who are required by a new "more effective" Aussie customs change to wait on items for 2-3months AFTER it gets there.
Point is: It's difficult enough for sellers already...

So I guess, under the new rules the internationals can choose to neg us within 60days without any chance of reprisals or attempt at negotiation?
That's right kiddies, our feedback window just got cut back from 90 to 60....

A good majority of buyers would rather the save a few bucks and get stuff sent surface.
Heavens knows, when Blackmoor buys something it's almost always surface... This usually does take around 60 days, if not longer. Now EVERTHING will have to go air. Not only will the bad sellers be leaving Ebay in droves (huzzah!), many of the good ones too. Those who won't be able to sell their items because buyers will balk at the cost of shipping air.
This just murdered any international sales for most everyone IMHO.

We've been on eBay just over ten years now. And yes it's had it's drawbacks, but it's been a fun ride up until now. But today it feels like that old friend has just stabbed us in the back and turned the knife

bclarkie
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Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 5:58 pm

Xaxaxe wrote:Back to the bigger picture real quick. I wonder how many smaller sellers are, like me, are pretty much going to stop selling on eBay? I mean, honestly, what's my incentive for ever selling another book, CD, DVD or other media-related item on eBay? My fees just jumped way up, the stuff sells better on Amazon anyway, buyers can now leave any sort of feedback or do any sort of extortion they want to ... why would I have any interest in any of that? Yes, I'll still sell gaming items on eBay, but I'll be taking a lot of listings elsewhere ... and eBay will not be seeing a single penny from any of those.

There really is zero incentive for smaller sellers to sell on Ebay. I just wonder if tyhey realize that or not. I can understand attempting to cater to your larger sellers, but by doing so thewy have to realize its going to drive a lot of business too with the increased fee structure that will affect the little guy the most. Can you hear it:

"Sure I'd like to sell of some of this stuff, but Ebay wants effectively 20% of its value for me to sell it. I think I'll just throw it away, its not worth the hassle..."

"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." -Neitzche

bclarkie
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Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 6:01 pm

Saxonangel wrote:If anything the feedback debacle is going to hit those sellers who ship internationally.

Before Xmas, Blackmoor and I toyed with the idea of shipping air only to international buyers. This was due to the unrealistic expectations of an absurdly impatient (and perhaps mentally unstable) french buyer.
Now it's well into the new year and we are struggling with a number of Australians who are required by a new "more effective" Aussie customs change to wait on items for 2-3months AFTER it gets there.
Point is: It's difficult enough for sellers already...

So I guess, under the new rules the internationals can choose to neg us within 60days without any chance of reprisals or attempt at negotiation?
That's right kiddies, our feedback window just got cut back from 90 to 60....

Which makes it almost a catch-22, as the less you are willing to work with your buyers the more likely you are to have dissatisfied buyers. It's a lose-lose situation for sellers.

"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." -Neitzche

Saxonangel
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Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 6:22 pm

We do work with our buyer as much as humanely possible. I have no problem answering the hoards of "where is it?" mails we get, even if it's a day or two after the auction has ended. I have walked through the various procedures on ebay with a number of new buyers and even given out the usual common sense buyers advice.
Hell... I've even researched rules compatibility for a nonbuyer's question on an OOP miniature we were selling.
IMHO It's most definitely a responsibility of ALL sellers to be as communicative as possible. It's in their best interest!
However
Once it has been mailed out, even with tracking and items #'s and so forth, there is little one can do beyond prayer if it has been caught up in the bureaucratic grind of customs. *sigh*

But we still seem to stand on a razors edge with a small number of buyers whose expectations are simply out of reach. The new feedback system is going to nurture BUYERS like COUGAR while OTOH (rightfully) piss on his BS selling parade.

Sea-to-sky-games
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Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 6:29 pm

Badmike wrote:
As STS says, the sellers can be treated however Ebay wants...we aren't going anywhere.

In a big-picture sense, I'm not sure this is true at all.

My point was that, on the margin, and at this point in time, it may pay to cater to buyers rather than sellers given the importance of securing their large network. At some point, of course, more sellers will bail when they can't impose all these extra costs on consumers.

But right now I think they gain a lot more than they lose by these changes.

Sea-to-sky-games
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Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 6:34 pm

bclarkie wrote:
There really is zero incentive for smaller sellers to sell on Ebay. I just wonder if tyhey realize that or not. I can understand attempting to cater to your larger sellers, but by doing so thewy have to realize its going to drive a lot of business too with the increased fee structure that will affect the little guy the most. Can you hear it:

"Sure I'd like to sell of some of this stuff, but Ebay wants effectively 20% of its value for me to sell it. I think I'll just throw it away, its not worth the hassle..."

I'm surprised more people don't think this way already. I mean it takes a lot of effort to list a $1 CD that probably won't sell or sell for much, yet one sees them listed eveywhere.

That aside, the ~16% assumes one uses paypal and it is possible that there will be a trend away from its usage or towards other alternatives. If people are ticked off, there are plenty of entrepreneurs out there to find a solution.

Busman
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Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 6:49 pm

Sounds like Ebay just opened the door for someone to create a site that is small seller friendly.

I don't buy that much on Ebay, once in a very great while, but when I do, I actually find Powersellers to be a huge turn off.

They remind me of the early days of MTG card trading. There were people who were trading cards because they loved the game and wanted a complete set or needed a card for a deck, and then there were the people who were clearly making a business of buying and selling the cards. They were the ones who jacked prices up, created false local rarities of cards, etc.

Powersellers have done the same thing on Ebay with D&D goods. Any half-decent deal gets snapped up, jacked up, and resold.

I avoid Powersellers as much as is possible, they are a last resort for me.

With these changes, Ebay has become the home of the Powerseller. Now my infrequent purchases will become non-existent purchases.

It's off to Craigslist and other smaller sites, I suppose.

beasterbrook
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Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 6:54 pm

Sea-to-sky-games wrote:
I'm surprised more people don't think this way already. I mean it takes a lot of effort to list a $1 CD that probably won't sell or sell for much, yet one sees them listed eveywhere.

That aside, the ~16% assumes one uses paypal and it is possible that there will be a trend away from its usage or towards other alternatives. If people are ticked off, there are plenty of entrepreneurs out there to find a solution.

This is what turns me off the most, I have like a bazillion magic cards, the commons are worth 10-50 cents.. honestly why bother all the work for putting em up, fees chared and then sending them off.... I have a heap of books that you might get a buck or two for.. why bother.. its the small stuff with little or no margin on that will be effected the most, its better to use boards like this to advertise the cheap small stuff...

On a side note.. I really haven't seen any difference with customes here is Australia.. have things changed with them??

Brette:)

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Blackmoor
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Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 7:14 pm

beasterbrook wrote:On a side note.. I really haven't seen any difference with customes here is Australia.. have things changed with them??

Brette:)

Australian customs has slowed things down so bad for us we have to take them off the list when we sell. Items taking up to 100 days to clear. Every item we have sent down under (including the Perelmean PH) in the last six months has resulted in shipping delay issues. We contacted Canada Post recently to put in our 4th claim for a lost item to Australia a and they told us that there were 7000 packages from Canada stuck in customs.

Anyway that what we were told.

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beasterbrook
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Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 7:29 pm

Blackmoor wrote:
Australian customs has slowed things down so bad for us we have to take them off the list when we sell. Items taking up to 100 days to clear. Every item we have sent down under (including the Perelmean PH) in the last six months has resulted in shipping delay issues. We contacted Canada Post recently to put in our 4th claim for a lost item to Australia a and they told us that there were 7000 packages from Canada stuck in customs.

Anyway that what we were told.

Is it only Canadian items? I had a shipment come from canada a little while ago from Mark and had no problems or delays..

Brette:)

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Beyondthebreach
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Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 7:37 pm

Saxonangel wrote:
So I guess, under the new rules the internationals can choose to neg us within 60days without any chance of reprisals or attempt at negotiation?
That's right kiddies, our feedback window just got cut back from 90 to 60....

A good majority of buyers would rather the save a few bucks and get stuff sent surface.
Heavens knows, when Blackmoor buys something it's almost always surface... This usually does take around 60 days, if not longer. Now EVERTHING will have to go air. Not only will the bad sellers be leaving Ebay in droves (huzzah!), many of the good ones too. Those who won't be able to sell their items because buyers will balk at the cost of shipping air.
This just murdered any international sales for most everyone IMHO.

There is no more Surface mail shipping from the US to other countries. It is simply not an option - everything has went to airmail and it is quite affordable. Good job USPS! I realize that your aren't in the US, but the majority of Ebay business is from the US, so the shipping delay isn't really a concern to them . . .

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benjoshua
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Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 7:56 pm

I am pleased/O.K. with several things in particular. First, the buyer satisfaction stars will mean something and Cougie is cooked. He's nowhere near 4.6 in several areas(I'm assuming they wil use the same star system and values). However, that 4.6 and 4.8 standard is difficult to reach. I am at 4.8 to 4.7 on all my categories and I think I'm a pretty good seller.

The other thing I like is that the minimum selling price for fixed-price auctions is now at $1.00. I would hope that means Coug and other problematic sellers can no longer buy feedback.

The fees are at 3 1/2 percent higher. It's not good but it's not the end of the world. What this does is hurts (maybe stops?) people buying big lots on eBay and then re-selling. The profit margin is significantly cut and then some. Of course, if you are re-using used stamps and getting stuff for free by stealing from people with M-Bag schemes, you could at least make a living.

So, I find the changes distasteful, but if they put Coug out of business, I'll be happy about that. The enemy of my enemy is my friend? In this case, maybe, and maybe not. The jury is still out on that one.

Thank goodness I'm just about through selling stuff. I don't know how many of you know, but I bought a BUNCH of stuff from a gaming store that didn't pay it's taxes, and I've been selling it off for the past three years and still have stuff. I think I've got about a year to go. It was a fun ride. However, I wouldn't be surprised if I found another bonanza bargain and started all over again. But then again, maybe not.

Truth is worth finding and life is too short to work for money.

benjoshua
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Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:01 pm

Beyondthebreach wrote:
There is no more Surface mail shipping from the US to other countries. It is simply not an option - everything has went to airmail and it is quite affordable. Good job USPS! I realize that your aren't in the US, but the majority of Ebay business is from the US, so the shipping delay isn't really a concern to them . . .

Yeah, but USPS needs to provide for the purchase of insurance on First Class International. The only way to get insurance now is with Priority(it's free for up to about $50.00 of coverage) or by Registered Mail ($9.50 plus the insurance cost). That's crazy expensive.

I'd hate to limit my international buyers. They are shelling out the big bucks in many cases. The dollar is so low, it's not funny.

Truth is worth finding and life is too short to work for money.

bclarkie
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Posted: Tue Jan 29, 2008 8:08 pm

Saxonangel wrote: The new feedback system is going to nurture BUYERS like COUGAR while OTOH (rightfully) piss on his BS selling parade.

I think the part that I bolded is an extremely important point. Folks are likely going to need to be a lot more vigilant when ole Dave is trying to buy something and warn the seller ahead of time what he/she is going to to be up against and to do everything in their power to make sure that Dave isn't able to manipuating the system into try force them to refund money or whatever else....

"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." -Neitzche

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