Versimilitude wrote:Hi,

so, to change the tack slightly, what makes America such a violent society at heart then?

You all seemed pretty "normal" to me...

Cheers,
KAL

Karen this is actually a great question, and one too few foreigners never ask, instead falling into rhetorical platitudes of "why can't America be more like Canada/UK/Switzerland" etc.  

The cultural issues are that unlike many other countries, we won our "freedom" through force of arms.  We fought the bloodiest battle in history on our own soil against our own brothers to keep the country intact.  Bearing arms is something that many in the US see as a birthright. But does embracing a firearm culture mean we are more violent that other societies?  Royalty and being ruled by hereditary monarchy is viewed with revulsion and disgust to most Americans.  Does the fact that for the majority of their history the British were under this system mean they are a passive, weak culture? I don't believe so.  Culturally it's all how you look at it. So I would reject the thought that Americans are more violent by nature, even though we come from violent beginnings and are in many ways more comfortable about violence than other cultures.  

But I would also turn that around.  If I was in Europe in the 17th century, would I be perfectly justified in asking what makes Britain such a violent society at heart?  Innumerable wars that took place for hundreds and hundreds of years across England, Spain, France, Germany, the entire European continent, etc.  This doesn't even include your civil wars and Cromwell.  Napoleon?  He was a stinker. China before the 20th century?  I could ask that question there, as civil wars claimed millions of lives throughout their history.  India, Africa, South America, and so on.  

I would instead ask why the HUMAN RACE  is at heart a violent race, from cavemen days until now.  We (Americans) aren't more violent than Mexico, Syria, most of Africa, even now, if you look at it statisically. Yet a couple of dozen children dead resonate more than 50k dead in Ruwanda, or the slaughter going on right now in Syria.  Why? Could it be because people expect more out of us (America) as a society?  I couldn't tell you for sure.

America does, however, have a very effective media industry and entertainment industry that spotlights American violence more than other countries. I can probably watch half a hundred movies about the american civil war; how many movies about the English Civil War, the Napoleonic Wars, the Chinese Wars, the 100 years War, etc does Hollywood churn out?  Maybe a handful?  Mao killed more people in the 20th century (defenseless, weaponless people who could not fight back) then anyone....how many movies about Mao are there?  Why aren't people asking why China is such a violent society? Stalin?  Hitler and Nazi Germany are beaten to death as subjects, but often those are a backdrop to Americans (movies about D-Day, etc) featuring American and British heroes performing "good" violence to overcome the foes. In short, Americans are seen as violent in large part because Hollywood and the media portrays them as such.  We never had any sort of mass extermination like Mao's genocide (45 million people, I believe) yet people say we are the most violent, worst country on earth.  

It is an interesting question. But I would say if you wanted to look at the roots of violence in America it is cultural, like most countries, and like most countries' idiosyncracies, it is hard to understand to someone born somewhere else.

Mike B.

Well, one thing that can make us all come together in the shadow of this tragedy....the knowledge that the media are still a bunch of douchbag idiots:

http://news.yahoo.com/conn-story-unfold ... 17903.html

BTW, if you saw any of the media's "interviews" with poor little 8-10 year old kids, you hopefully resisted the overwhelming urge to kick in your tv screen.

Mike B.

Zenfinite wrote:

ashmire13 wrote:Interesting on what you see in regards diversity.

Can't say I get that, not that you're wrong, but it's hugely diverse. Tourists or not.
Leicester has just become the first city in the UK where white British is now the minority.

Sardan wrote:I live in central Birmingham. Incredibly diverse.

I spent a week in London. Walked probably a hundred miles throughout the city. The only time I wasn't out and about was when I was asleep. We stayed near Trafalga Square, which, as I understand  is a hotspot for the youth. Wikipedia says this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_groups_in_London

Now obviously, I have no idea what hey mean when they say "London is the first and only place in the United Kingdom in which White Britons are a minority." Not sure how a 45% share of the population makes you a minority, when the next highest ethnic group is at 18.4%, but hey, go numbers. Total white people, 60%. African-United Kingdom (hah that sounds kinda funny) 13.3%, Indian 6.6%, top 3.

I live right outside of Philadelphia. Spent most of my life there. Philadelphia numbers, again using Wikipedia, are 44% Black, 39% white, 12.5% Hispanic for the top 3.

I think it's just a difference of perspective. "Incredibly diverse" means two different things to you and I, and that's kind of what I was talking about when I said we just weren't going to even have a similar perspective on this. Again, I walked all over London. Took the subway like, 30 times easy. I've walked all over MANY large cities in the US and there's no comparison from a "diverse" perspective. You can go check Wikipedia to look at some more numbers, or Google or whatever, to see the difference.

It's a shock. My wife is half black and she noticed the difference as well, so, hopefully it's not just my own selective vision hehe. Please, I am NOT insulting anyone, or casting aspersions, or anything negative. Just reporting what my interpretation of what I saw is. That's all. Two different countries, like any other different country out there. Nowhere else on the planet has as many different people living together as the US. That's a fact.

Zenfinite

Well, probably apropos of nothing, but my Texas neighborhood is firmly middle class (what is left of the middle class, that is).  Our next door neighbors are from Malaysia, across the street neighbors are from Africa, we have plenty of Indians, Asians and people of color. One guy down the street I'm pretty sure is Jewish Armenian.  Another couple down the way are hard-core Mormons (a new kid ever year and they have all kinds of Romney posters up) from somewhere in Europe (funny accent I can't place).   That's just my immediate neighborhood.  Our city has one of the largest Tongan communities in the US (why are high school football team is so good), and obviously there are many hispanic families in the area. Pretty much a melting pot here smack dab in the middle of Texas.  Yeh, Texas.  The USA is just incredible when it comes to different races and societies living together, it's amazing when you go to a large sporting event (say, the Rangers or Cowboys) and realize the guys around you rooting for your team are from all over the world.  Pretty cool.  

Oh, and we have an elementary school here in my city which is ranked one of the most ethnically diverse in the entire United States....there are something like 28 different nationalities there under one roof.  Students are always coming from all over to do feel-good type research papers on it.

Mike B.

sauromatian wrote:

ashmire13 wrote:Leicester has just become the first city in the UK where white British is now the minority.

I thought that happened circa 400 AD with Hengest & Horsa. Have you ever managed to get rid of those awful people with their moronic-sounding language?

No, probably need some ethnic cleansing.

I think, Zen, we are a minority in the majority. British may not be the figures minority against any Polish, Indian, African, etcetera but British vs the rest, we are.
Not an issue, but just clarifying.

Karen is right, white people dominate London in parts, but they are not British necessarily.
Did you visit North or East London by any chance?
If I travel to Southall, West London, I can play spot the white man and be struggling to see one.

ashmire13 wrote:Interesting how views from different cultures see gun laws and races though. Interesting debate/discussion and points raised


Am I right saying Canadia has more guns per head than the US, but less gun deaths?

According to that Google Doc posted earlier, US has 88 guns per 100 people (ranked 1st), vs. Canada at 30 guns per 100 people (ranked 13).

Firearm homicides per 100K people for the US was 2.97, Canada 0.5.  So with 3 times as many guns, the US has 6 times as many firearm homicides.

However, as I pointed out earlier, there does not appear to be any correlation between gun ownership rate and firearm homicide rate, as there are many nations with high gun ownership rate and very low firearm homicide rates, and vice versa.

ashmire13 wrote:Interesting how views from different cultures see gun laws and races though. Interesting debate/discussion and points raised


Am I right saying Canadia has more guns per head than the US, but less gun deaths?

This may or may not be true as far as percentages of gun ownership. But I want to again point to the fact that large urban cities, with massive poverty issues, are the driving force behind gun violence in the U.S.

To some, political power is more important than your children.
And also, btw, more important than the entire American economy.

Badmike wrote:Oh, and we have an elementary school here in my city which is ranked one of the most ethnically diverse in the entire United States....there are something like 28 different nationalities there under one roof.

Aw hell, I'm from southwest Houston - our diversity could kick your diversity's ass, ya three-piece-suit-wearin' Metroplexite. (Sorry that sounds rude, but we must claim something as we can so rarely best you at football.)