They just don't get it, do they? • Page 9 • Collecting General • The Acaeum

The Acaeum Forums • Collecting General

They just don't get it, do they?
	Page 9 of 12 • 1 2 3 ... 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 11 12

Author

killjoy32
Grandstanding Collector

Posts: 8283
Joined: Jan 21, 2005
Last Visit: Jun 26, 2025
Location: Wallasey, Merseyside, UK

Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 1:15 pm

Deadlord39 wrote:I see the future. Half drow/half giant shrew creatures with Great Chew and Improved BackCling feats. That's if he runs 3Eeeew.

frank! you couldnt get me to DM anything other than a-sort-of-1E if you paid me my friend. its the only format of the game i like. simple, quick, fun and interesting - thats how i like it. not enough time to faff with rules and well, i bend everything to suit my own purpose in the game anyway so who cares about rules!

as for 3E... *shudders* no i dont think so. i leave that to the folks who already like/play it

Are we nearly there yet?

Deadlord
Grandstanding Collector

Posts: 5885
Joined: Jun 30, 2003
Last Visit: Jul 31, 2026
Location: Cow Hampshire, US

Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 5:21 pm

I agree, it's the only way to play!

If you hit a Rowsdower, you get to keep it.

Zenopus
Verbose Collector

Posts: 1709
Joined: Sep 03, 2003
Last Visit: Feb 24, 2026
Location: Portown

Posted: Fri Aug 31, 2007 11:55 pm

Here's an interesting quote from Rayner Unwin, long-time publisher of Tolkien:

Indeed, good marketing demands constant re-presentation of product. Between ourselves Tolkien and I referred to this as the 'The Philosophy of Restlessness', and we agreed that although we personally didn't need it, it brought tangible results by way of sales. If a top is spinning you have to keep whipping it...

(This is from the Foreword to J.R.R. Tolkien: A Descriptive Bibliography, 1993. Oak Knoll Books).

Badmike
Grandstanding Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 8079
Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Last Visit: Jun 24, 2026
Location: DFW TX

Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 12:14 am

DungeonDelver wrote:
You obviously don't read them often enough; the PHB was sent out without an index included, yes, but every other AD&D book does. Furthermore, the DMG has an index for the PHB in it.

It was a fun inside joke all the time we played 1E..."I can't find such and such spell"...."oh, just check the Index will you?" Still mystifies me that the PHB never had an index, even in all the reprints it had.

Yeh, should have made it more clear, it was just the PHB I was talking about....

Mike B.

"THE MORE YOU THINK ABOUT WHY i DONE WHAT i DONE THE MORE i LAUGH" Cougar
"The Acaeum hates fun" Sir Allen
"I had a collecting emergency" Nogrod
Co-founder of the North Texas RPG Con
NTRPGCON

Badmike
Grandstanding Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 8079
Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Last Visit: Jun 24, 2026
Location: DFW TX

Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 12:15 am

killjoy32 wrote:
mike has a nice surprise coming in the next adventure

*edit* oh they will be entering Tegel Manor again, but redesigned by me and well guess where its going to be!

you heard it here first folks. THEN lets hear him say SpellJammer sucks....he aint played it Al-style yet

Al

I'll jump out the first airlock I see.....

Mike B.

"THE MORE YOU THINK ABOUT WHY i DONE WHAT i DONE THE MORE i LAUGH" Cougar
"The Acaeum hates fun" Sir Allen
"I had a collecting emergency" Nogrod
Co-founder of the North Texas RPG Con
NTRPGCON

FormCritic
Grandstanding Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 6720
Joined: Jul 16, 2005
Last Visit: Sep 30, 2022

Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 1:11 am

I don't know what assumptions "The Game Wizards" (ie: "guys who replaced Gygax") had about DM's and players and all that.

What I do know is that 2nd Edition monsters had to be tougher in order to fix the power balance created by rules such as weapon specialization and all of the new spells first loosed in Unearthed Arcana.

Basic D&D was also a major influence on 2nd Edition AD&D. The dragons in D&D could rock over the scaley chickens in AD&D.

2nd Edition closed some of the gap between characters and monsters that had been created over the years.

Giants were fun opponents in AD&D. They really got interesting in 2nd Edition...particularly when their speed was increased so that they could outrun the basic player character.

I don't tend to use dragons much anyway. They are supposed to be legendary creatures and dreadful opponents...so I don't tend to have intermediate level dragons pop in to die. Instead, I plant an all but unkillable dragon or two in the campaign setting and see who dares to go after it.

That way, the party does not remember, "You know, that one dragon that we slew that one time."

They remember that, "We slew the Dragon of Palantine Law! Woo Hoo!"

In my last campaign...two new players had joined the group. When they found out that they were in a white dragon's lair, they rushed in eagerly to slay and loot. Boy were they infuriated when the beast was a 3.5 dragon with all the rules tweeks, totally locked and loaded for them.

They simply had not learned the lessons the others in my campaigns know.......that you should not assume that the DM will always prop up monsters so that you can automatically kill them. You have to know when to run.

Knowing when to run...even at high level...is an essential skill in 3.5.

The dragon is still there....beneath the ruined fortress of Tenebros, on the Nightside...if you want to go look. There are some player character treasures and magic items added to its horde.......

"But I have watched the dragons come, fire-eyed, across the world."

Badmike
Grandstanding Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 8079
Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Last Visit: Jun 24, 2026
Location: DFW TX

Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 1:53 am

FormCritic wrote:I don't know what assumptions "The Game Wizards" (ie: "guys who replaced Gygax") had about DM's and players and all that.

What I do know is that 2nd Edition monsters had to be tougher in order to fix the power balance created by rules such as weapon specialization and all of the new spells first loosed in Unearthed Arcana.

Basic D&D was also a major influence on 2nd Edition AD&D. The dragons in D&D could rock over the scaley chickens in AD&D.

2nd Edition closed some of the gap between characters and monsters that had been created over the years.

Giants were fun opponents in AD&D. They really got interesting in 2nd Edition...particularly when their speed was increased so that they could outrun the basic player character.

One of the good things out of 2E was the powers that be basically just made offical all the dozens of house rules, Dragon mag articles, and unofficial suggestions made over the years because, let's face it, the 1E dragons had become giant lizards with a few breath problems. Which is why all the early Dragon mags had articles entitled "Bringing the fear back into Dragons" and "Making Dragons a terrible foe again" and "Putting the power into Dragons" and "Doing something to make Dragons less a scaly chicken and more an awesome beast" (ok, I made up the last one, still...).

So first the dragons were given more HD/HP, because as cunning a rascal as a dragon may be, there comes a moment when a 9th level fighter is whaling on him, and if he's only got 70 HP he's going down in a couple rounds, max. Then do more damage, at least more than a longsword for god's sake, plus additional damage at older age. Then an AC that was actually better than some of the players...give them magic resistance, some interesting and often overlooked powers (immunity to missile weapons....anyone ever have a dragon killed by missile weapons alone in 1E? I did). Plus the abilities I liked the most, the ability to use the tail, wings, rear feet, etc, in attacks (yeh, you just sneak right behind that dragon, Mr. Thief, and let that big ass old dragon tail knock your asshole up around your leather helmet....oh, and let me kick you with my rear feet a couple times just for laughs).

Because as much as I loved 1E, the idea that you could SUBDUE that ancient red dragon with a few whaps of your sword flat, and then parade him around the town with a leash around his neck, may have been the most embarrasing and ludicrous idea ever proposed in a game called Dungeons & DRAGONS. I know that by 2E, I didn't have a single dragon encounter that didn't end with at least 2-3 high level characters either destroyed or dead, sometimes more if I was feeling paritcularly cunning that day.....!

Mike B.

"THE MORE YOU THINK ABOUT WHY i DONE WHAT i DONE THE MORE i LAUGH" Cougar
"The Acaeum hates fun" Sir Allen
"I had a collecting emergency" Nogrod
Co-founder of the North Texas RPG Con
NTRPGCON

killjoy32
Grandstanding Collector

Posts: 8283
Joined: Jan 21, 2005
Last Visit: Jun 26, 2025
Location: Wallasey, Merseyside, UK

Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 5:32 am

Badmike wrote:
I'll jump out the first airlock I see.....

Mike B.

but you wont be able to - because it will be guarded by a 6 headed fire breathing giant shrew :lol:

Are we nearly there yet?

flying_purple_monkfish
Prolific Collector

Posts: 195
Joined: Mar 31, 2006
Last Visit: Jan 23, 2009
Location: UK

Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 7:55 pm

Giant space shrew!! hahaha.
Sabre tooth giant space hamsters were my personal favorite in terms of shere stupidity. Gotta love the AD&D gnomes.

"Somehow, in hell I knew there would be mushrooms"

deimos3428
Long-Winded Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 3066
Joined: Jul 09, 2004
Last Visit: Apr 30, 2015

Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 9:30 pm

Badmike wrote:One of the good things out of 2E was the powers that be basically just made offical all the dozens of house rules, Dragon mag articles, and unofficial suggestions made over the years because, let's face it, the 1E dragons had become giant lizards with a few breath problems.

I never found the 1E dragons to be underpowered in the least. Stat-wise, perhaps a little, but how often to you run into a dragon due to a wandering monster roll? It shouldn't happen.

These things are really experienced and extremely intelligent. They should never be toe-to-toeing it with fighters, weapon-specialized or not! Where are the tricks? The traps? The minions?

If the final battle is a push-over, the characters weren't inconvenienced sufficiently on the way in to justify the dragon's existence in the first place. I'm not saying every dragon lair should be Tomb of Horrors, but really, not far off.

Badmike
Grandstanding Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 8079
Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Last Visit: Jun 24, 2026
Location: DFW TX

Posted: Sat Sep 01, 2007 11:06 pm

deimos3428 wrote:I never found the 1E dragons to be underpowered in the least. Stat-wise, perhaps a little, but how often to you run into a dragon due to a wandering monster roll? It shouldn't happen.

A ancient white dragon in 1E can have 56 HP MAX(Check out G2 for confirmation), AC3, and does 1-4x2 and 2-16 pts damage from claw bite. The breath weapon would do 56/28 pts of dmg. I had 1E druids with more HP at 9th level. I had 1E fighters or 9th level that could do that much in one round if they hit three times while hasted. I had 1st lvl fighters with better AC (plate and shield, anyone??????) A Dragonne, which isn't evena real dragon, could have more HP than an ancient white dragon. An OTYUGH can have 64 hp, for Gods sake. Do I need to go on? I'm depressing myself.

In 2E, the same dragon would have 17 hd (for 136 hp, since I ALWAYS give my dragons max pts per lvl), doing 136/68 pts of damage from a breath weapon. He is AC -5, does 11-16x2 and 12-26 for claw/bite routine, PLUS additional attacks with the tail (12-22 pts + chance of stunning), wing buffets (10-16 + chance to knock prone), kicks (10-16 + knocked back 11-16 feet and chance to be knocked prone), not to mention the Snatch or Plummet attacks if they are flying, if he chooses. He has 30% Magic Resistance, innate abilities of Gust of Wind x3 daily, Wall of Fog x3 daily, is immune to normal missile weapons and I haven't even brought spell casting ability into the mix (1E white dragons only have a 5% chance to even use spells, while 2E ancient white dragons automatically get 3 mages spells they cast at 20th lvl.

Folks, the white dragon is the P-word of the dragon clans...the other dragons are WORSE. An ancient Red Dragon (or god forbid a wyrm or great wyrm) should be able to wipe out a high level party unless they've really done their homework. The only time I've ever used an ancient red dragon in 2E, he killed 8 party members out of a frikken army of 12 characters (main characters and henchmen), average party member level of name level (9-12 or so), and loaded down with every spell, magic item and fire resistant device they could beg, borrow or steal. Two of the characters ended up having to be wished back into existance later (burned to crisp, nothing left) with a ring of wishes that had been stored back at one of the player's strongholds.

1E dragons are giant lizards with a breath weapon. 2E dragons will kick your ass in, and piss on your grave, then take a moment to read the morning's paper before taking on another unwise party of punks trying to mess with them.

These things are really experienced and extremely intelligent. They should never be toe-to-toeing it with fighters, weapon-specialized or not! Where are the tricks? The traps? The minions?

It's a DRAGON. The bad ass of the monster world. You shouldn't NEED any pissant little minions, tricks or traps to punk a 9th level party who is foolish enough to come into his lair. Any self respecting dragon would give you a look to curdle blood if you suggested what he needed was a pit trap there, and a falling boulder here, and a few gnolls guards there....

Plus, no matter how experienced and super intelligent, at some point, the dragon is going to be toe to toeing if the adventurers are in it's lair...it's just the nature of the encounter business. See G2 and G3 for EGG examples of dragons in their lair.....

If the final battle is a push-over, the characters weren't inconvenienced sufficiently on the way in to justify the dragon's existence in the first place. I'm not saying every dragon lair should be Tomb of Horrors, but really, not far off.

What you are saying is "1E dragons aren't really very tough, so what you need are some encounters to basically knock the party down a little before they get to the main lair". Or...JUST MAKE THE DANG DRAGONS NASTIER IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!!!!!

I think everyone, players and creators alike, realized how silly it had become when every year a Dragon magazine article would pop up with the inevitable title "How to Make Dragons more Powerful". It was a problem that everyone saw, but no one did anything about until 2E.

The saying "If it aint broke, don't fix it"? This was broke, and it was fixed. 2E can be dissed for a lot of things, but not for making dragons and giants much deadlier opponents.

Mike B.

"THE MORE YOU THINK ABOUT WHY i DONE WHAT i DONE THE MORE i LAUGH" Cougar
"The Acaeum hates fun" Sir Allen
"I had a collecting emergency" Nogrod
Co-founder of the North Texas RPG Con
NTRPGCON

deimos3428
Long-Winded Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 3066
Joined: Jul 09, 2004
Last Visit: Apr 30, 2015

Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 1:03 am

Badmike wrote:The saying "If it aint broke, don't fix it"? This was broke, and it was fixed. 2E can be dissed for a lot of things, but not for making dragons and giants much deadlier opponents.

Sorry, can't agree with you there. IMO, the 2E dragons are stupidly powerful. May as well just drop the stats entirely, and put a sign reading "plot device" over their heads.

FormCritic
Grandstanding Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 6720
Joined: Jul 16, 2005
Last Visit: Sep 30, 2022

Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 2:44 am

deimos3428 wrote:Sorry, can't agree with you there. IMO, the 2E dragons are stupidly powerful. May as well just drop the stats entirely, and put a sign reading "plot device" over their heads.

Well...there you go....I agree totally.

Dragons should be exactly that...plot devices.

Of course, AD&D had stats for gods. The really tough gods had 300 hit points...so they could only be killed some of the time.

So, it stands to reason that a dragon should be killed lots of the time...with a maximum of 88 hit points for the meanest chromatic dragon.

Hopefully, 4th edition dragons will be mean as all get out!

"But I have watched the dragons come, fire-eyed, across the world."

FormCritic
Grandstanding Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 6720
Joined: Jul 16, 2005
Last Visit: Sep 30, 2022

Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 2:44 am

deimos3428 wrote:Sorry, can't agree with you there. IMO, the 2E dragons are stupidly powerful. May as well just drop the stats entirely, and put a sign reading "plot device" over their heads.

"But I have watched the dragons come, fire-eyed, across the world."

DungeonDelver
Prolific Collector

Posts: 232
Joined: Nov 16, 2004
Last Visit: Oct 30, 2017

Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 2:45 am

deimos3428 wrote:Sorry, can't agree with you there. IMO, the 2E dragons are stupidly powerful. May as well just drop the stats entirely, and put a sign reading "plot device" over their heads.

QFT. 100%.

Cattledog
Active Collector

Posts: 98
Joined: Sep 03, 2006
Last Visit: Aug 27, 2013
Location: WV

Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 9:20 am

Dragons....I'm somewhere in the middle. I thought 1e dragons were just too easy. Tricks, traps, and minions are for evil wizards not greedy dragons, for me anyway.

2e dragons could be too hard in some cases but they always forced players to bring they're A games to the table. Of course I can't really think of a more terrifying creature than a dragon so only large powerful parties should be fighting them in the first place.

And a word about random encounters...What a way to destroy a campaign. Unless you want to teach you're party humility an ancient dragon probably shouldn't just show up, but that's just me.

Hmm, no, I don't have a gambling problem, I'm winning, and winning is not a problem. That's like saying Michael Jordan has a basketball problem, or Def Leppard has an awesomeness problem. So why don't y'all pour some sugar on that?

JohnGaunt
Sage Collector

Posts: 2332
Joined: Feb 20, 2006
Last Visit: Aug 27, 2017
Location: Shipwrecked by the laughter of the gods

Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 10:24 am

FormCritic wrote:Dragons should be exactly that...plot devices.

Of course, AD&D had stats for gods. The really tough gods had 300 hit points...so they could only be killed some of the time. So, it stands to reason that a dragon should be killed lots of the time...with a maximum of 88 hit points for the meanest chromatic dragon.

Hopefully, 4th edition dragons will be mean as all get out!

Two 4E rumors that I probably got from the ENWorld main page. It's early, and I'm lazy, so they aren't direct quotes:

(1) PC Levels 21-30 are for super-duper, high-level, plane-changing encounters. Doesn't this imply that the individual PCs will be mean and godlike?

(2) Orcus is pictured on the front of the 4E Monster Manual . . . ummm . . . isn't he some big badass god that the PCs aren't going to face, ever? What is he doing on the front of the 4E MM?

killjoy32
Grandstanding Collector

Posts: 8283
Joined: Jan 21, 2005
Last Visit: Jun 26, 2025
Location: Wallasey, Merseyside, UK

Posted: Sun Sep 02, 2007 11:01 am

Cattledog wrote:Dragons....I'm somewhere in the middle. I thought 1e dragons were just too easy. Tricks, traps, and minions are for evil wizards not greedy dragons, for me anyway.

And a word about random encounters...What a way to destroy a campaign. Unless you want to teach you're party humility an ancient dragon probably shouldn't just show up, but that's just me.

1. 1e dragons are not too easy. they are prb only that way because a DM doesnt utilise what they have properly. if a party of PCs ever meets one of MY dragons....god help them, for me, they are amongst the elite monsters that you would prb meet on a very rare occasion - mostly if you were stupid enough.

2. nothing wrong with a dragon in a random encounter. after all there HAS to be a chance you might see one? but i always utilise it as an opportunity for something to happen or nudge the party in a direction i want etc.

Al

Are we nearly there yet?

The Acaeum Forums • Collecting General

Page 9 of 12 • 1 2 3 ... 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 11 12