ashmire13 wrote:  please tell me thats tongue in cheek.. USA bailing out the rest of the world? please, no... I suspect there is a vast difference in views over usa history and actual! I guess with no oil or anything of worth (other than human life) probably explains mugabe being left alone???

No. It's the US propaganda machine in full effect. There is a substantial difference between what some americans believe (the educated ones), what the majority believe (your average american in a burger bar queue), and what is actually real (a very European concept). They are neither encouraged not helped to find out the truth for themselves. It was Heidrick who said, "we control events better whan we control opinion". I have to say that in my experience, US propaganda is among the most potent and pervasive in the world, and the majority of the US citizens and both a captive and willing audience, and either too lazy, too unwilling, or too ill educated to think past it. Unfortunately I have not had the opportunity to compare notes with some of the more colourful countries on our planet.

Ian is dead on, the American sheeple as a whole have become utterly passive. Your average Joe (except plumbers, of course) wants to wake up in the morning, eat his breakfast, go to work, grumble about being underpaid, come home, watch TV and go to bed. Throw in a vacation once a year and he is a quiescent slug.
The U.S. as a country will go the way of the Soviet Union. Inevitable; all the signs are there for whoever wants to see them.

ashmire13 wrote:  of course, such a wonderfully insightful and accurate view of Europe... shame some people actually believe that..  

I've been to Europe many times, even lived in Paris for three months, and my sister is married to a Swiss gentleman.  I am even traveling there to celebrate my twentieth wedding anniversary this summer.  I have no major problems with Europe. I just put the lyrics up because I couldn't understand what the singer was saying sometimes.

bombadil wrote:Actually, having lived for years in northern Europe (about 7 years total, but in only 3 countries), I'd have to say you find very much the same attitudes there.  Blame it on the "pervasiveness" of American propaganda if you want, but what about the embracing of certain aspects of American lifestyle and culture by western Europeans?  I'm constantly surprised, listening to Europeans profess about what Americans are like, when you ask them whether they've spent any significant length of time there and the answer is "no".  And in the countries I've lived in, most of what people claim to know about the US or Americans also comes from television, either through their own media or American television series.  

Generalizing about Americans is about as ridiculous as generalizing about Europeans.  

On my one and only trip to Europe in the 80's (not the globetrotting fool Bom is!), you wouldn't believe how many people thought the TV show "Dallas" was a docu-drama and not the wretched over the top and silly entertainment it was...having fun would be for me and my buddies to sit down during a show and laugh about all the inaccuracies shown (since I live about five minutes outside of Dallas myself). Then again, I think most AMERICANS thought the show was an accurate portrayal of life in Texas, so I can't blame the Euros much...

A true story, we had visitors from the Isle of Man in the 70s that stayed with us a month, my father was a friend of the husband. The wife had never been to the US, and the week before their arrival found her crying one night begging her husband to leave her behind and go by himself. When asked why, she confessed that she didn't want to get drawn into schemes and lies by my mom.  Further quesitoning brought about that since the only American woman she knew of was Lucy on "I Love Lucy", she naturally assumed all American woman were ditzy, wacky, and constantly pulling all sorts of crazy schemes behind their husbands backs.  We had a good laugh about it when they finally arrived (I wonder if she also assumed most males in the US were Cuban band leaders....)

Sterotyping goes on with both sides.  One thing I'm constantly amazed at is Europeans believe we are spoon fed all knowledge by "The Media" here, equating their experience with the BBC (which, err, spoon feeds them ONE point of view of all world events) that we have a one viewpoint monolithic entity that spews propaganda to be lapped up by the masses.

We actually get BBC broadcasts on Public television here, and I've watched it many times, very good but of course EXTREMELY biased to ONE point of view, with no counters.  It is, obviously, news sponsored by the government as is all media in the UK and Europe. In contrast, I can turn on the TV/radio her and get a very pro-Israel biased view on Fox news, then turn the channel to CNN and get a very pro-Palestinian view, then turn it to NBC and get a very down the middle view on affairs.  In the same paper I can find a article decrying the treatment of prisoners in Guantanamo Bay and asking for it's shutdown; on the opposite page an editorial defending Guantanamo Bay.  I can switch on the radio and get a nationally broadcast hosts' denouncing of gun ownership; two clicks of the dial and another host is defending gun ownership for all Americans.  Similar divisions about the Iraqi War, abortion, the economy, etc pop constantly in all forms of media.....if there is a "media bias", the bias is towards diversity of opinion.

Another example, a story covered by the New York Times, the Dallas Monring News, and the Los Angeles Times might have three completely different approaches and points of view, as different parts of the country view things differently. Getting a "one world" view from any US citizen would mostly depend on where he grew up in a lot of cases.  If the only Americans you ever came in contact with were from, say, the west coast, you might be shocked by the opinions of a group of mid-westerners or east coasters on the exactly same subject if you happened to run across them. I think Bombadil is an ok guy, but based on stuff we have both said, even though we are both from the US I would bet we would vehemently disagree on many points.  And yet, in his globetrotting style, Bom is far more the ambassador for the US than I will ever be as for many Euros he will be the "face" of the nation. Does that make my opinion any less valid?  No, but it's certainly less disseminated overseas.  

Another example, take an event that got world coverage, the Katrina disaster.  There are dozens of slants and takes on this one issue enough to fill books.  I've been to Louisiana many times; my mom was born there and grew up there.  I know of other Acaeum members that have lived substantial parts of their lives there.  It might surprise those from outside the US to hear some of the opinions of people who have lived there and are actually from there to opinions I hear from Europeans on this.  Likewise, any story about, say, a disaster in Leeds would be totally colored by what what I saw on the TV or news and not based on any actual knowledge. Believe me as someone who directly experienced the aftermath there are SEVERAL sides to the New Orleans/Katrina mess, not all of which are European neighbors have an inkling of....what side is the "propaganda machine" on in this case?

I guess I don't understand then what the US propaganda machine would spew forth, seeing as how so many different opinions here. I think what most people in other countries refer to is the pervasiveness of american entertainment (both TV and movies) which is by far the most visible link of american culture to many nations across the world. I have to let you in on a secret, american entertainment, even the best of the dramas, are so far away from actual life here as to practically be set on the moon. Even the so called "reality" shows merely lampoon one segment of the populace, who are often delibertly trying to be over the top in an attempt to win a million dollars or what have you.

If you mean government propaganda, well of course, any government is going to push their point of view (or try to) on both the people of it's country and other countries.  Obviously each of us are going to filter such information through their own life experiences.  I mean, we have people in the US who think ex-president Clinton is a piece of crap for what he did in office, and those who think the man can do no wrong.  I would suspect most opinions fall somewhere inbetween. Is this so unlike other countries around the world?  Perhaps because these countries don't have a free press, and thus are not allowed to report on differing opinions of their leaders? I wouldn't pretend to know because I don't live in those countries.  

What Deadlord refers to as the "sheeple" is dead on, there are a bunch of them here that don't give a rat's ass beyond what they want to believe.  I have to think the euro equivilent exists also, so no surprise there.  The real trick comes from those who are forced to confront different viewpoints than their own, and admit they might not have all the answers.  What answer is the "right" or the "wrong" one is always going to be subjective.  

Mike B.

The problem with American press is that it is so heavily biased. There appears to be no effort to report the truth in a level unbiased manner. Every single item broadcast is 'spun' by either the political leanings of the individual newscaster, or the proclavities of the station. And from the writings US citizens in public domain, and the vox pops that the US select to broadcast to reflect the way it's public thinks and feels, there is a definate indication (whether real or fabricated by US press) that it's population as a whole is brainwashed by the propaganda put out 24/7, and that they are unable to think for themselves.

Now I am not ignorant enough to believe that the educated do not have the ability to trancend such efforts by the US population in general. I am sure they do. But they still have to live within a system that is prevelant and within which they have been brought up their entire lives. Nor am I saying that the truely motivated cannot find and distill the truth from the mass of crap from the internet. I am sure they can. But each of these groups are in the minority. We have the benefit of being on a board, following an interest, that presupposed a certain level of education, and a slight inclination towards thinking differently from the great majority of our respective populations.

But generalizing is not dictated by the person doing the generalizing, but by the display and behavior of the population of the country being steriotyped. I do not go on holiday to the Med', get pissed, and fight with the locals. I do not go to football matches, scream and shout at the opposing supporters in the streets and stand by and whatch fellow supporters throw bottles at the police. Unfortunately that is the steriotype of your average English male living on a housing estate in Britain. And it is true. It is a reflection of the way our people broadcast themselves to the world. And it is a true reflection of the values and behaviour of our majority of those people. And I do not object to people steriotyping English Arseholes and arseholes of hooligans. I wish it were different, but there you are.

The educated and enlightened US citizen may object to being bundled in with the rest of his fellow countrymen, but what the educated really need to consider is whether they are being fairly represented by their government and their media, and whether they find it acceptable that the vast majority of their fellow citizens live in ignorant brainwashed bliss.

I would say the answer to both those questions should be 'no'.

mbassoc2003 wrote:The problem with American press is that it is so heavily biased. There appears to be no effort to report the truth in a level unbiased manner. Every single item broadcast is 'spun' by either the political leanings of the individual newscaster, or the proclavities of the station. And from the writings US citizens in public domain, and the vox pops that the US select to broadcast to reflect the way it's public thinks and feels, there is a definate indication (whether real or fabricated by US press) that it's population as a whole is brainwashed by the propaganda put out 24/7, and that they are unable to think for themselves.

It's not an American problem..it's all press, in every country around the world.. Unless you are deluding yourself into thinking the BBC is fair, down the middle no opinion, which it isn't, having watched BBC news on our local PBS stations.  Or god forbid taking something Al-Jazera broadcasts and thinking "Wow, those totally unbiased radical muslims have HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD, without a hint of bias!!!" Even the images shown can be a subtle form of bias. Take a bombing in Afghanistan....show pictures of dead males with AK-47s laying around, it is a strike against terrorists.  Show pictures of screaming women and children and it's a accidental desctruction ofa school. This isn't new, it's been going on since time began.  

The delusion was fooling ourselves into thinking there could ever be a "fair and balanced" unbiased account of any event.  Case in point, I just finished reading my third book on the subject of the War of 1812.  Each book, while all very well researched and written, brought it's own subtle bias into the mix, and all three authors had slightly different viewpoints of the aftermath....while I myself reached my own conclusions. Randolph Hearst may have coined the phrase "Yellow Journalism" but this sort of reporting was in effect far before that.  To rail about biased journalism is to tilt against a windmill of the highest sort.

And please let's not confuse "brainwashing" as "believing different than I do", as Bclarkie says that seems to be the method of operation nowadays when faced with conflicting viewpoints: demonize the opposition and you win the propaganda battle.

Mike B.

ashmire13 wrote:  please tell me thats tongue in cheek.. USA bailing out the rest of the world? please, no... I suspect there is a vast difference in views over usa history and actual! I guess with no oil or anything of worth (other than human life) probably explains mugabe being left alone???

I'm sorry I must have missed the part where any other country has had to come over to our continent and sacrifice thousands upon thousands of it soldiers in our defense. I'm not condemning anyone for not having to do so. But I sure as hell won't be hit with revisionist history in regards to what America has done for the rest of the world.

jasonw1239 wrote:And now for something completely different...  

Chaosium just listed the PDF version of my latest monograph!
It is written for the Cthulhu by Gaslight period.

Mysteries of Sudan

Nice work Jason!  

Can't wait to find the free download on bit torrent  
Just Kidding!!!

I'll buy this asap....I just picked up Undying Leaders after never finishing it, I'll have to leave a review after I've finished.  

Keep up the good work!!!

Mike B.

Badmike wrote:
Nice work Jason!  

Can't wait to find the free download on bit torrent  
Just Kidding!!!

I'll buy this asap....I just picked up Undying Leaders after never finishing it, I'll have to leave a review after I've finished.  

Keep up the good work!!!

Mike B.

Thanks Mike.
I found a couple of short reviews of my Mysteries of Tibet.
http://www.yog-sothoth.com/modules.php? ... tent&id=92

http://index.rpg.net/display-entry-comm ... inid=11240