Photocopies of PoVQ.... • Page 8 • Collecting General • The Acaeum

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Photocopies of PoVQ....
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faro
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Posted: Sat May 16, 2009 9:24 am

Just to reiterate (and for anyone passing by in future!). This thread was started relating to the recent auction - of what is almost certainly a genuine circa 1977 "3rd" print:

Your first post stated:

. wrote:There are way too many photocopies of this module, and photocopies were available with this exact cover in conventions in the UK as late as the early 90's.

The Edinburgh "2nd" (from the original auction image, as won by Kynan):

"7.3 ORGANIZING THE PARTY: Always have a keg, even if it's BYOB...
7.4 TAKING THE GAME SERIOUSLY: Don't"

mbassoc2003
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Posted: Sat May 16, 2009 9:54 am

Yes.

The two anomilies in the known print history are the 'Bella/Toymun 3rd Print' (sealed on hanger) believed not to be a Zocchi print (no evidence of the Zocchi sticker) and the 'Edinburgh Bastard 2nd print' (shown above but with more detailed piccies on Tome of Treasures).

This bastard second print also appears to be printed by Zocchi AFTER the digest copies ran out and NOT before. So, was Zocchi still photocopying whatever copies of PoVQ he could find and selling them on late into the 80's?

That's what the evidence presented above, and over on ToT, says. And if so, was he given the right to photocopy and sell PoVQs for as long as he wants by WW? I doubt it!

This week I've been mostly eating . . . The white ones with the little red flecks in them.

mbassoc2003
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Posted: Sat May 16, 2009 10:05 am

faro wrote:That is a "2nd", not a "3rd" (yellow tower cover sheet).

It doesn't really matter if it's a black foldered 1st or a digest 4th, we are still talking about selling photocopies here.

If I laser colour copied a black folder PoVQ (incl. the black folder) and I sold it on eBay in a ziploc baggie does that make it a legitimate printing?

If not, then how can something be a legitimate 3rd print pre-pub with a vampire bat cover and something else be a legitimate 2nd print Zocchi late 80's photocopy, any the legitimate 3rd print pre-pub for whatever reason was nen openned (who seals prepubs!?) and has a completely different cover to all the rest of the stock in the world, and how come Zocchi started printing 2nd prints in the late 80's AFTER the release of the 2nd cover of the 4th print digest copy, and when he's already been photocopying 3rd print copies legitimately for the preceeding eight years of so?

You need to get your stories straight because something is seriously wrong with this print sequence, and it's a bad day when the board starts to believe that everything that goes up on eBay must be real. That being the case, it won't be long before we reach 10 printings, we already have at least NINE different versions of PoVQ.

This week I've been mostly eating . . . The white ones with the little red flecks in them.

faro
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Posted: Sat May 16, 2009 10:10 am

* [edit] insert this above the previous post since it does matter which we're talking about.

Same wavelength here, more-or-less, even if that's not quite how the thread started off.
Remember please that you're dealing with other people's money as well as (fact-based) researching.

faro wrote:Your first post stated:
. wrote:There are way too many photocopies of this module, and photocopies were available with this exact cover in conventions in the UK as late as the early 90's.

Sticking to that, too? i.e. That copies with both "2nd" and "3rd" print covers were available in Edinburgh in the late 1980s and early 1990s? Or just those "2nd"s?

"7.3 ORGANIZING THE PARTY: Always have a keg, even if it's BYOB...
7.4 TAKING THE GAME SERIOUSLY: Don't"

mbassoc2003
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Posted: Sat May 16, 2009 10:21 am

faro wrote:Sticking to that, too? i.e. That copies with both "2nd" and "3rd" print covers were available in Edinburgh in the late 1980s and early 1990s? Or just those "2nd"s?

Only ones I saw were 3rd print clones.

So far we have these known prints....

1. An orange cover alleged pre-pub manuscriprt with a typed cover.
2. A black folder version.
3. A folderless black foldered over-run printing.
4. A later folderless 2nd printing.
5. A bastard Zocchi photocopy of a later folderless 2nd printing (circa 1990).
6. A TSR released/distributed 3rd print with a princess on the balcony cover.
7. A Zocchi released/distributed 3rd print with a princess on the balcony cover and a Zocchi sticker.
8. An unknown released (alleged pre-pub) 3rd print with vampire bats on the balcony cover.
9. A digest release with monochrom cover.
10. A digest release with horrific pink colour cover.

I'm sure I've missed a couple, but there's at least 10 printings for you.
No way they're all real.

This week I've been mostly eating . . . The white ones with the little red flecks in them.

faro
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Posted: Sat May 16, 2009 10:37 am

. wrote:You need to get your stories straight because something is seriously wrong with this print sequence, and it's a bad day when the board starts to believe that everything that goes up on eBay must be real. That being the case, it won't be long before we reach 10 printings, we already have at least NINE different versions of PoVQ.

"You" (the Acaeum listing?) has nothing whatsoever to do with "me" (there are still errors in plain sight such as the "pre-publication" D&D box which is no such thing) and you're getting pretty up-tight again by trying to pull down everything on the basis of two copies, neither of which you actually appealed to at the start of the thread.
You're making Kynan's guess on the date of the Edinburgh "2nd" fit your own understanding but still with no actual evidence as to which cover was seen by yourself back in the day there. (It would be easy enough to "lose" the "3rd" cover - sometime during the two digest prints or after - and have to revert to the "2nd", or simply just give up using it. There's nothing automatically sinister in that disconnect to the sequence and there is no "flood" of new photocopies currently on the market).

. wrote:It doesn't really matter if it's a black foldered 1st or a digest 4th, we are still talking about selling photocopies here.

If the method used in the production of a given item is photocopying, that is not an issue. Why does that automatically have negative connotations?

. wrote:If I laser colour copied a black folder PoVQ (incl. the black folder) and I sold it on eBay in a ziploc baggie does that make it a legitimate printing?

Try a less silly example please. Reductio ad Absurdum isn't the best approach to research, I'd've thought.

. wrote:If not, then how can something be a legitimate 3rd print pre-pub with a vampire bat cover and something else be a legitimate 2nd print Zocchi late 80's photocopy, any the legitimate 3rd print pre-pub for whatever reason was nen openned (who seals prepubs!?) and has a completely different cover to all the rest of the stock in the world, and how come Zocchi started printing 2nd prints in the late 80's AFTER the release of the 2nd cover of the 4th print digest copy, and when he's already been photocopying 3rd print copies legitimately for the preceeding eight years of so?

Where does "photocopying 3rd print copies legitimately for the preceeding eight years of so" come from?
Actually try the whole paragraph again, please. Pre-pub 3rds? What Mike/IO suggested was nothing of the sort, but an observation as to why the lettering on the yellow tower cover could not be carried out in red foil.

> "has a completely different cover to all the rest of the stock in the world"
If you're on the toymom/Bella copy, Yakima is still in Washington State and I don't think they've declared independence recently.

"7.3 ORGANIZING THE PARTY: Always have a keg, even if it's BYOB...
7.4 TAKING THE GAME SERIOUSLY: Don't"

faro
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Posted: Sat May 16, 2009 10:46 am

. wrote:1. An orange cover alleged pre-pub manuscriprt with a typed cover.

There is no such thing as far as I know, and I was on the receiving end of Pete's "misremembering" as to the origins of the "shop copy" - presuming that's the one you're meaning.

. wrote:A digest release with horrific pink colour cover.

Mulberry and asparagus to use Crayola nomenclature, please - or rather not! Yes, that's still pretty horrific but we are talking about a Vampire Queen here.

"7.3 ORGANIZING THE PARTY: Always have a keg, even if it's BYOB...
7.4 TAKING THE GAME SERIOUSLY: Don't"

bombadil
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Posted: Sat May 16, 2009 11:09 am

faro wrote:There is no such thing as far as I know, and I was on the receiving end of Pete's "misremembering" as to the origins of the "shop copy" - presuming that's the one you're meaning.

Same here; I wouldn't go along with this legend.

And just to re-iterate something I think I pointed out a few years ago, there was definitely no Zocchi sticker on the Bella.

Let mirth prevail!

mbassoc2003
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Posted: Sat May 16, 2009 11:58 am

Orange Pre-pub
I was talking of the 1st print pre-pub originally posted on the original afterglow website. Ban't find the image, but I'm sure someone here has it archived.

Bella/Toymom Copy
Lots of fluff and political speek, but no explanation why this copy has a traced fake cover, and not the same cover as all the others we've ever seen. Yes, for financial expediency, it may be best to imaghine this is the first ever pre-pub attempt at the 3rd print cover, but we all know that's just BS. This copy is a fake or a freak, and on the basis that the cover alone appears to be a very bad forgery, I suggest that fake is way more likely than any other proposition that has been offered to daye.

UK Convention Copies
Yes, I do know they were 3rd print tower covers, and yes, I conceed that in all likelihood they were legitimate Zocchi released photocopies and not anything sinister or nefarious. Unless we can uncover pother copies, I will presume that these were legitimate an withdraw my original allogation that forgeries were rife in the UK in the 90's. I do find their availability in the early 90's a little strange, but that alone does not amount to substantive proof.

TFM's Bastard 2nd Print
I would tend to defer to Kynan's knowledge and 'feel' for what is real and what is not; for what is modern and what is old. His base material for comparison is far greater than many's and his experience is also far greater than most. If his opinion is that it was produced late 80's or early 90's, and that is in comparison to know products in his possession, then that is a far better evaluation than any I've heard on Acaeum. That makes it either a Zocchi printed some 10+ years AFTER the supposed date of publication, and that requires explanation if it is to be believed genuine. I would suggest that this copy is genuine and indeed printed as a means of getting a quick buck far later than Zocchi's agreement with WW intended.

Acaeum's Print Sequence
As it stands, either the print sequence is wrong, or the print sequence is correct and the three items listed above (Orange Cover Pre-pub, Bella/Toymum 3rd, Zocchi Bastard 2nd) do not belong in the print sequence because they are not genuine PoVQs. Unless of course the board accepts that we're gonna have an ever expanding print sequence and just add every PoVQ that comes along regardless of it's origin or legitimacy. Hence the possibility of just adding a colour copy black folder edition, which is clearly a rediculous position to get into, but one that may be reached if the precedence of adding fakes to the print sequence were set by legitimising the three copies above.

I say, don't legitimise the copies above. They don't belong and we should not set a precedence which will make a mockery of archiving the history of these products.

This week I've been mostly eating . . . The white ones with the little red flecks in them.

mbassoc2003
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Posted: Sat May 16, 2009 12:00 pm

bombadil wrote:... there was definitely no Zocchi sticker on the Bella.

Thanks for that. Clears up the possibility of a link.
<EDIT ADDITION>
Weren't there typed manuscript pages in that lot, IIRC. I've probably got the ebay photos archived somewhere on my HD, but can't lay my hands on them easily. Wasn't there a stack of typed pages and maps and character sheets and stuff. Anything in any of that?

This week I've been mostly eating . . . The white ones with the little red flecks in them.

Last edited by mbassoc2003 on Sat May 16, 2009 12:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

bclarkie
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Posted: Sat May 16, 2009 12:02 pm

. wrote:Orange Pre-pub
I was talking of the 1st print pre-pub originally posted on the original afterglow website. Ban't find the image, but I'm sure someone here has it archived.

There is no such thing. This was simply a spiral bound version of the 1st/2nd print "claimed" at the time by Matthias to be a "Pre-pub".

It was/is no more of a "Pre-Pub" than the "Pre-pub" woodgrain set still here on the Acaeum. That myth was debunked a long time ago here.

"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." -Neitzche

bclarkie
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Posted: Sat May 16, 2009 12:07 pm

bclarkie wrote:
There is no such thing. This was simply a spiral bound version of the 1st/2nd print "claimed" at the time by Matthias to be a "Pre-pub".

It was/is no more of a "Pre-Pub" than the "Pre-pub" woodgrain set still here on the Acaeum. That myth was debunked a long time ago here.

Here is a clip from the old afterglow site:

http://web.archive.org/web/200212190652 ... ontsr.html

"First Edition. This one is spiral bound with that cheap plastic stuff you can get in any photo copy shop. It has a total of 34 pages wrapped in yellow cardboard sheets. The cardboard sheets contain NO further inscription except for the title written on the front page with a typewriter. From the way the pages look (like cutting lines along the edges of the paper, condition of the pages, total abscence of cover artowrk and so on) I would deem it highly improbable that some gamer privately bound his copy. This release is labeled as "First Printing, June 1976" and mentions that it was distributed exclusively by TSR. "

And here is a picture scan of it:

http://web.archive.org/web/200106232239 ... ww_vq1.gif

ETA: Here is where Pete Kerestan himself debunks the myth of the pre-pub:

viewtopic.php?t=1869&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=320

"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." -Neitzche

mbassoc2003
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Posted: Sat May 16, 2009 12:14 pm

Yay! That's the one....

I put it to the board that this belongs in the same catagory as the other two 'anomilies' in the PoVQ print history.

This week I've been mostly eating . . . The white ones with the little red flecks in them.

Last edited by mbassoc2003 on Sat May 16, 2009 12:18 pm, edited 3 times in total.

bclarkie
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Posted: Sat May 16, 2009 12:16 pm

. wrote:Bella/Toymom Copy
Lots of fluff and political speek, but no explanation why this copy has a traced fake cover, and not the same cover as all the others we've ever seen. Yes, for financial expediency, it may be best to imaghine this is the first ever pre-pub attempt at the 3rd print cover, but we all know that's just BS. This copy is a fake or a freak, and on the basis that the cover alone appears to be a very bad forgery, I suggest that fake is way more likely than any other proposition that has been offered to daye.

To note, I'd also say that the Bella copy is much more likely to be simply a printing/original copying issue rather some nefarious unauthorized copying situation from way back in the 80's to illegally reproduce a $5 module at the time.

"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." -Neitzche

mbassoc2003
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Posted: Sat May 16, 2009 12:19 pm

bclarkie wrote:
To note, I'd also say that the Bella copy is much more likely to be simply a printing/original copying issue rather some nefarious unauthorized copying situation from way back in the 80's to illegally reproduce a $5 module at the time.

That does not explain the difference in colour or why it is sealed and on a hanger if it were meant to be an original master. You are saying this is a pre-pub?
Six posts away from being long winded.

This week I've been mostly eating . . . The white ones with the little red flecks in them.

faro
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Posted: Sat May 16, 2009 12:34 pm

. wrote:I put it to the board that this belongs in the same catagory as the other two 'anomilies' in the PoVQ print history.

Had forgotten about that one - long time back and discounted from recollection even.
Don't think there was any further evidence from Matthias that that was more than someone's spiral-bound copy with a typed cover; no more anomalous than a hole-punched Tsojconth, if so.
If it's still out there, a scan of the grid would be useful.

bclarkie wrote:ETA: Here is where Pete Kerestan himself debunks the myth of the pre-pub:

viewtopic.php?t=1869&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=320

Agreed. Thanks for the re-link.

bclarkie wrote:To note, I'd also say that the Bella copy is much more likely to be simply a printing/original copying issue rather some nefarious unauthorized copying situation from way back in the 80's to illegally reproduce a $5 module at the time.

Late 1970s would have been a better general fit given that all other items from the auction (bar one) were from that period, with a weighting towards 1977/78. The cover price was on the high side, but still not sure how far back that can push the date in its own right.

"7.3 ORGANIZING THE PARTY: Always have a keg, even if it's BYOB...
7.4 TAKING THE GAME SERIOUSLY: Don't"

bclarkie
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Posted: Sat May 16, 2009 12:39 pm

. wrote:That does not explain the difference in colour or why it is sealed and on a hanger if it were meant to be an original master. You are saying this is a pre-pub?
Six posts away from being long winded.

I never said I thought it was a prepub.

IMO saying the Bella copy was a "pre-pub" is probably reaching.

The difference in color can easily be explained by fading or lack thereof due to decreased/increased sun exposure. When speaking of the printing anomaly, I was referring to the artwork differences between the two with regards to the "queen", not the coloration.

"He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abyss gazes also into you." -Neitzche

bombadil
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Posted: Sat May 16, 2009 12:45 pm

FWIW, recovered some of my originally-posted pics of the Bella:

Let mirth prevail!

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