Yeah, and when you're done finding out how big your junk is with the Ref Sheets, pick up the DMG and roll on the prostitute table, 'cause you're gonna need it .

This is just too cool...

http://video.nytimes.com/video/2011/07/ ... e-car.html

http://www.thestar.com/article/326529

Interesting take on Gygax's pop culture significance.

sauromatian wrote:
People really got into stuff back then, didn't they? D&D came out around the same time as Star Trek & Star Wars, franchises that also sparked instant obsession. The rock star was much more of an icon then, than now, as well. What was it about society in that era? Why would people to latch onto the stuff of fandom? Maybe it's no coincidence that Beatlemania started right after the Kennedy assassination.

Star Trek did not spark instant obsession.  It was years in syndication that created the Star Trek fan base.  Star Trek's tenure on prime time TV was always a shaky ride.

Star Wars did spark an immediate explosion of fan interest...a combination of good story-telling and insanely good special effects.  People watched the first movie multiple times. (I have no idea why anyone over age 30 is still a huge Star Wars fan after the three soft turds that recently slid out to extend the movie franchise.)

D&D is more a product of the explosion of Tolkien's work in the 1960's.  Arguably the 20th century's most influential writer, Tolkien essentially created Dungeons and Dragons as well.  For perspective on Tolkien's influence, consider how often and how loudly Gygax had to proclaim that Tolien was not his primary influence.  That may actually have been true for Gygax himself, since he was old enough to have read the pulp fiction writers in their original publications.  For Gygax's young fan base, Tolkien was a major inspiration.  As Stephen King once wrote, we were all trying to bring Frodo and Bilbo back to the Grey Havens and re-live the story.  

There are gamers who have not read Tolkien...which I think is just wierd.  

Beyond Tolkien, D&D is also a result of the appearance of pulp fiction and classic fantasy titles in cheap paperback form in the late 60's and early 70's.  There was a time when a visit to a used bookstore could net a reader entire sets of Howard, Lieber, Zelazny, Lovecraft, Derleth, Heinlein, Herbert, Moorcock, Wagner, Pratt, Tolkien, Burroughs, Anderson, Carter, Eddison, Asimov, Norton, Norman, LeGuin, Lewis, Bradbury and a host of other classic authors for pennies.  At one point, $10 was capable of providing a young reader with an entire library of D&D's co-creators.  Heck, Doc Savage and Tarzan novels were often available for five to ten cents.

(I still have fond memories of raiding Apache Books in downtown Portland, Oregon.  God, what a treasure trove!)

It is intersting to speculate what D&D would have become if it had first been consumed and utilized by modern Idiocracy-type fantasy readers...raised on today's limp-wristed fantasy full of lesbians, tree huggers, pagans, sex vampires and telepathic animals.  

Also, consider how the rise of Japanese animation has influenced fantasy gaming...essentially creating 4th Edition D&D and strongly influencing the art and feel of 3rd Edition and Pathfinder.  Much as I like Pathfinder, any game that insists on mixing the pronouns he and she is at least a bit effeminate -- and, worse,  hard to read.

The rock and roll arena band era of the 70's, and the rise of uber-icon rock stars, was a product of two factors:  Young people with money and lack of consumer options.  The rock audience could buy records and buy-into the rock stars because they had cash.  Some groups came to dominate rock sales literally because, compared to today, there was nothing else to buy and almost no one else on the radio.  Digital music and the internet have fractured the music market and given us far more choice than we used to have...with a corresponding dive in the sales of any one big-name band.

Music manias pre-date the 60's.  Elvis Presley other 1950's stars benefited from mania markets.

As for Beatlemania...even the Beatles came to loathe it.  The same phenomenon is still going on.  It is essentially group-think by young teen girls carefully targeted by industry marketing.

If anyone is still reading (and I don't know why you would be) I had fun writing this.

FormCritic wrote:Star Wars did spark an immediate explosion of fan interest...a combination of good story-telling and insanely good special effects.  People watched the first movie multiple times. (I have no idea why anyone over age 30 is still a huge Star Wars fan after the three soft turds that recently slid out to extend the movie franchise.)

The movie was released on my 7th birthday, which is probably the only reason my parents were willing to take me to see it. I was an instant guaranteed consumer of anything and everything Star Wars for the next 6 years or so.

I saw the first of the prequels twice, on the day it was released and then again the very next day, just to make sure I hated it as much as I thought I did the first time. I did.

For perspective on Tolkien's influence, consider how often and how loudly Gygax had to proclaim that Tolien was not his primary influence.  That may actually have been true for Gygax himself, since he was old enough to have read the pulp fiction writers in their original publications.  

I have no doubt that Tolkien wasn't his primary influence when creating D&D, but I've always wondered whether Gygax disdained Tolkien as much as he seemed to want people to believe. The pulps are great and all, but Tolkien's work (at least LotR) is so superior to most of it, on so many levels, as to make a claim of active dislike by a fantasy fan seem either disingenuous or an indication of plain old bad taste.

For Gygax's young fan base, Tolkien was a major inspiration.  As Stephen King once wrote, we were all trying to bring Frodo and Bilbo back to the Grey Havens and re-live the story.  

That would be me. The only fantasy I had read before encountering D&D was LotR and the Hobbit. Leiber, Lovecraft, Moorcock, etc. came later for me.

There are gamers who have not read Tolkien...which I think is just wierd.  

What's worse, there are Lord of the Rings fans who haven't read Tolkien, thanks to the Jackson films. Now THAT is weird.

There was a time when a visit to a used bookstore could net a reader entire sets of Howard, Lieber, Zelazny, Lovecraft, Derleth, Heinlein, Herbert, Moorcock, Wagner, Pratt, Tolkien, Burroughs, Anderson, Carter, Eddison, Asimov, Norton, Norman, LeGuin, Lewis, Bradbury and a host of other classic authors for pennies.

What, still no love for Vance ?

It is intersting to speculate what D&D would have become if it had first been consumed and utilized by modern Idiocracy-type fantasy readers...raised on today's limp-wristed fantasy full of lesbians, tree huggers, pagans, sex vampires and telepathic animals.  

Anything published by White Wolf in the '90s. No need to speculate .

If anyone is still reading (and I don't know why you would be) I had fun writing this.

I'm glad you enjoyed yourself (I had a few minutes to spare).

FormCritic wrote:I  just don't see what the shouting is all about when it comes to Vance.

I have read Eyes of the Overworld and three science fiction novels (Amarinta Station and its sequels Ecc and Old Earth and Throy.)

I would rate Eyes of the Overworld as adequate.  Amarinta Station was a good read, if you don't mind characters who are screamingly incompetent.  The other two novels were flat-out terrible writing.

When it comes to Vance and his influence....I just don't get it.

That explains it. Those are arguably his four worst books, with the possible exception of Ports of Call and Lurulu. Try the following, if the mood ever strikes:

Emphyrio (IMO his best novel)
Languages of Pao (2nd best novel)

There are a number of other novels I feel comfortable recommending, which are perhaps not quite at the level of the abovementioned, but still quite good (again, in my opinion, but then I wouldn't be saying it if it wasn't my opinion...):

The Gray Prince (aka The Domains of Koryphon)
Maske: Thaery
the "Planet of Adventure/Tschai" novels: Chasch, Wankh, Dirdir, Pnume.
the "Demon Princes": Star King, Palace of Love, etc. I can never recall all of the titles or the order, but you'd figure it out.
the "Durdane" series: The Anome, The Brave Free Men, The Asutra
Night Lamp (opinions vary, seemingly, on this one, though I liked it)

Quite a few other novels that are closer to the lesser level of success of Ecce and Old Earth, et al.:

Big Planet
Showboat World
Lyonesse trilogy (I'm only halfway through book 2--like them, don't love them, so far)
all of his mystery novels

Short Stories... The following are must-reads for any serious SF fan (IMO ):

The Moon Moth (brilliant!)
The Miracle Workers
a number of others are very good

I feel that the "Dying Earth" sequence of stories and novels are not his best. It's a shame that most people start with those, presumably because of the DMG Appendix N mention and the relative scarcity of Vance's pure "Fantasy" work, which these days seems to be more popular than SF, as opposed to incredible proliferation of his scifi stuff, most of which is lamentably and chronically OOP.

The chief appeal of Vance to me are his arch wit and stylistic verve, more than his plots, which usually exist to one degree or another, and when they do usually employ a number of clever twists, but are not especially original--it's usually more about the personality of his characters, and their attitude toward the setting and their reactions to their (mis)fortunes. And his dialog just plain makes me chuckle.

Just watched the documentary, Countdown to Zero - totally thrilling/terrifying!

Good recommendation, what is not to like about that  

mandalaymoon wrote:Anyone see the new Conan the Barbarian flick?  Comparison with the Arnold versions?

I've heard good and bad, but the good reviews are a bit suspect to me since they don't seem to weigh character, plot or storytelling in their evaluation, just gore and tits.