Die Cast Games, Inc. releases TSR1-INSIDIOUS AD&D adven • Page 8 • Collecting General • The Acaeum

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Die Cast Games, Inc. releases TSR1-INSIDIOUS AD&D adven
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Keith the Thief
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Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 5:08 pm

serleran wrote:No, WotC has no right to revoke the OGL. It even says so. They had the right to revoke the d20 STL, which they did, so people cannot say their products are d20-compatible, but the OGL is perpetual.

Also, and I could be wrong, but the OGL only applies if you use it. You cannot be in violation of an agreement that you never made.

From this clause, I presume. If so, I actually learned something today.

4. Grant and Consideration: In consideration for agreeing to use this License, the Contributors grant You a perpetual, worldwide, royalty-free, non-exclusive license with the exact terms of this License to Use, the Open Game Content.

Thanks!
akp

"Never let it be said I didn’t do the least I could do."

faro
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Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 5:09 pm

JasonZavoda wrote:About this grumbling, this is where the retro-clone people piss me off. They've gone to all this trouble plagerizing AD&D and D&D then it turns out they were just a bunch of chicken shit bastards who were to afraid of the sky falling on them to create material just using AD&D and D&D to begin with. Then of course there are the ones who seem to think that they have somehow invented the wheel (or AD&D/D&D) themselves and feel like they own it, as well as coming out with a better version.

How many of these scumbags have tried to report this transgression to a wotc brand manager I can only guess, but why would it bother anyone who loves the AD&D/D&D game system enough to rewrite the rules under an assumed name to find that they could just use AD&D/D&D? Because what some of these retro- assholes want is to claim better men's work as their own.

Seems kinda appropriate for a 1,776th post.

JasonZavoda wrote:First off - I followed the link to Knights and Knaves forum and my Norton went off with 171 threats and site is unsafe.

In that thread, Geoffrey helpfully pointed out this one from last year which didn't appear to cause an explosion amongst OSRers for similar reasons.

"7.3 ORGANIZING THE PARTY: Always have a keg, even if it's BYOB...
7.4 TAKING THE GAME SERIOUSLY: Don't"

Keith the Thief
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Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 5:18 pm

JasonZavoda wrote:
First off - I followed the link to Knights and Knaves forum and my Norton went off with 171 threats and site is unsafe.

About this grumbling, this is where the retro-clone people piss me off. They've gone to all this trouble plagerizing AD&D and D&D then it turns out they were just a bunch of chicken shit bastards who were to afraid of the sky falling on them to create material just using AD&D and D&D to begin with. Then of course there are the ones who seem to think that they have somehow invented the wheel (or AD&D/D&D) themselves and feel like they own it, as well as coming out with a better version.

How many of these scumbags have tried to report this transgression to a wotc brand manager I can only guess, but why would it bother anyone who loves the AD&D/D&D game system enough to rewrite the rules under an assumed name to find that they could just use AD&D/D&D? Because what some of these retro- assholes want is to claim better men's work as their own.

I like the retro-rules-sets.
I haven't delved into their forums enough to know whether they're all assholes. Maybe they are.

Still, the proliferation of these sets gives someone like me the chance to read and play various combinations of D&D.
For example, one set is OD&D + GH.
Another is 1E AD&D.
And so on.

In theory, of course, I could photocopy my own authentic rule books to mix-and-match.
But I'm lazy.
It's much easier for me if they do it for me ... bwa ha.

akp

"Never let it be said I didn’t do the least I could do."

Mythmere1
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Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 5:19 pm

JasonZavoda wrote:why would it bother anyone who loves the AD&D/D&D game system enough to rewrite the rules under an assumed name to find that they could just use AD&D/D&D?

Matt Finch, real name.

As far as I recall, I didn't piss in your Wheaties, though.

EDIT - If you're at NTRPGCon in July, let's have a beer and if you've got the patience for a legal discussion I'll run through the reasons why the retro-clones were done. It's not worth a zillion-page post that no one will read. Plus, even when someone's got a really good handle on the situation it's still completely fair to decide that the retro-clone thing is a wasted effort, and I'm guessing you'd still hold that opinion afterward. But I think you'd be less of the mind that it's about "plagiarism" and being a "chicken shit" or a "scumbag," and more about people who like gaming and are willing to do stuff -- whether you agree it's right or not -- that they think will support the underlying games.

JohnGaunt
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Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 5:59 pm

JasonZavoda wrote:afraid of the sky falling on them to create material just using AD&D and D&D to begin with

You aren't serious, are you? All Hasbro needs to do is threaten someone with a lawsuit, and the sky does start falling. If I were a retro/simulacrum creator, then I would rather work from the shelter of the Open Gaming License.

Mythmere1 wrote:Matt Finch, real name.

The flyleaf and Introduction in the Swords & Wizardry Core Rules make clear that S&W is based upon OD&D via the OGL. Nothing wrong there.

The flyleaf and Introduction in the S&W Monster Book give specific and general credit to people. Again, nothing wrong here.

You should claim all the credit you are due for creating S&W and being a pioneer in the retro/simulacrum field. That and $5 will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks.

Kingofpain89
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Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 6:09 pm

JasonZavoda wrote:
First off - I followed the link to Knights and Knaves forum and my Norton went off with 171 threats and site is unsafe.

About this grumbling, this is where the retro-clone people piss me off. They've gone to all this trouble plagerizing AD&D and D&D then it turns out they were just a bunch of chicken shit bastards who were to afraid of the sky falling on them to create material just using AD&D and D&D to begin with. Then of course there are the ones who seem to think that they have somehow invented the wheel (or AD&D/D&D) themselves and feel like they own it, as well as coming out with a better version.

How many of these scumbags have tried to report this transgression to a wotc brand manager I can only guess, but why would it bother anyone who loves the AD&D/D&D game system enough to rewrite the rules under an assumed name to find that they could just use AD&D/D&D? Because what some of these retro- assholes want is to claim better men's work as their own.

You know....some people find that it is possible to have a discussion or argument without resorting to calling people names and being a complete jerk.

Why the hell would any of them, especially ones that publish OSR material, report anything to anyone at WotC? Might as well cut their own throats instead. They may not like it....that is their opinion and amazingly they have a right to it.

By all means though....complain about it over on the KNK boards. I'm sure they will welcome you just as much as everyone over on Goodman's boards did when you went there to whine about the artwork for the 4th edition Dungeon Crawl Classics. :lol:

You don't like your job, you don't strike. You go in every day and do it really half-assed. That's the American way. - Homer Simpson

Badmike
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Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 6:24 pm

Are the WOTC police coming to take all my retro-clones away? How about my 1st and 2nd edition rulebooks? No?

Besides, they'd go after Paizo first. They're the only ones here making any money. Until Hasbro and the boys mail a cease and desist to Paizo I'm not going to bother sweating this too much.

Mike B.

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killjoy32
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Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 6:54 pm

oops hang on, 3 years in a row, i re-wrote tegel manor for AD&D....so does that mean the sky is going to fall down on little ol' tegel?

oh well it wont matter much as its falling down nicely enough by itself, with my own manipulating.

i like all the stuff thats being released - cant buy it all, so i have to be choosy (sorry to all if i havent yet purchased something of yours), but its all cool stuff.

but then i change all the material to my own way anyway, whatever version of whatever its in.

i hope it all goes on like it has been. there is a decent resurgence in the market imo and i hope it continues!

btw hey matt...hows things?

Al

Are we nearly there yet?

Mythmere1
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Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 7:06 pm

killjoy32 wrote:
btw hey matt...hows things?

Al

Very well! Training for the next marathon in January. How's the biking going?
My son's in England right now (until tomorrow); it was time for him to meet all the relatives.

smarmy1
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Posted: Wed Aug 11, 2010 9:43 pm

killjoy32 wrote:so does that mean the sky is going to fall down on little ol' tegel?

It should! I hear the place is haunted.

As to WOTC/Hasbro lawyers doing anything about the IP infringement, I seriously doubt it. To claim that their module is AD&D compatible may be a violation of the OGL, but at this point, Die Cast Games does not represent enough of a monetary threat to release the lawyers. While Hasbro undoubtedly has far deeper pockets than any OSR publisher, legal counsel is expensive and at most firms not used frivolously. Perhaps if the module had claimed '4e Dungeons & Dragons Compatibility', WOTC's interest may have been piqued as this represents an unauthorized association with current product offerings and all the other reasons companies defend their IP; however, this publication in its current form does not represent even the slightest blip on WOTC radar. Fears of the OSR being shutdown by this or similar events are overblown.

Hello Mrs. Cleaver, Theodore.

Gee, Mrs. Cleaver ... That certainly is a lovely dress.

Mars
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Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 12:38 am

As far as I can tell, WizBro doesn't do anything to protect their IP. I think this has been talked about a few times in the past. Some examples include the website that sells pdf copies of The General magazine along with replacement parts/instructions/etc for most Avalon Hill games, etc - all WizBro IP.

I think there have also been a few other OSRIC or "generic" items that have used the AD&D claim directly on the cover without any recourse. Similarly, the classic "dressing" has been used a number of times as well. Expeditious Retreat Press started with Pod-Caverns, Red Mausoleum, etc - I think this line is up to 14 or so modules all dressed in the old format. Doesn't seem like WizBro has made any efforts to stop them.

I don't think WizBro cares much about what other people do but their lawyers are more concerned about making sure WizBro's butt is covered.

Mars
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Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 12:38 am

burntwire brothers
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Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 8:36 am

Wow! This new controversy has sold mods like mad. I am down to under 50 copies left. There will be changes to the cover of the second printing whenever it is done. Just a little asterisk and fine print to cover ones arse

I may even totally drop the OGL crap as it seems I really don't need it.

Really can't believe how mad a few people got over the cover, but it seems there were others who did similar stuff before me without repercussions.

Available now from Die Cast Games: Night of the Black Swords by Allen Hammack (Author of C2-The Ghost Tower of Inverness) with artwork by Jeff Easley and Diesel.

burntwire brothers
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Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 8:47 am

lokiwookie wrote:Devon,
just for curiosity (and because I am speaking about your module on French forums), is it possible to know how many copies have been already sold? And how many pdf? (if it is not an inappropriate question)
Thanks!

No prob. I have sold just over 200 modules so far. Only 12 PDF's have been purchased but that was probably by random people who found the site and weren't Acaeum/Dragonsfoot/Tome members. I have probably given out well over 100 free PDF's.

-Devon

Available now from Die Cast Games: Night of the Black Swords by Allen Hammack (Author of C2-The Ghost Tower of Inverness) with artwork by Jeff Easley and Diesel.

dsaunders
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Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 9:20 am

it's making a pretty interesting discussion over there on Underdark Gazette. especially this nice little example of self-righteousness. probably the same guy who turned thinkgeek.com in to the National Pork Board (http://www.thinkgeek.com/blog/2010/06/o ... cease.html)

Josh said...
I guess we'll see what WOTC has to say. I e-mailed them the link and the info on this.

August 11, 2010 8:58 PM

-dave

dsaunders
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Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 9:25 am

burntwire brothers wrote:Wow! This new controversy has sold mods like mad. I am down to under 50 copies left.

Any of those new orders being shipped to WOTC (ATTN: Legal Department)?

-dave

MetaSigma
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Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 9:34 am

Make that under 49 copies left

...

I'll keep my mouth shut about the "controversy", except to say that I'd guess there's been more discussion about the putative infringement on the Internet than at WotC headquarters. The usual "Auld Skewl" tempest in a teapot :roll:

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bbarsh
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Posted: Thu Aug 12, 2010 9:39 am

burntwire brothers wrote:
No prob. I have sold just over 200 modules so far. Only 12 PDF's have been purchased but that was probably by random people who found the site and weren't Acaeum/Dragonsfoot/Tome members. I have probably given out well over 100 free PDF's.

-Devon

That seems to be the norm. I completely dropped pdf sales. Just was not worth the effort. Great news. 200 is a fantastic number!

Re: the OGL. If you are going to stick with the AD&D trademark deal, then you might as well get rid of the OGL. Drive on!

And I could've bought these damn modules off the 1$ rack!!!

New modules for your Old School game http://pacesettergames.com/

Everything Pacesetter at http://pacesettergames.blog.com/

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