mbassoc2003 wrote:I just caught a youtube clip of some guy getting shot by the police in a train station in the states. This guy was shot in the back while lying face down on the ground (looks like he was cuffed too), and the cop that shot the guy did so in front of hundreds of witnesses and on camera. It's just amazing the things that happen in America.

One theory is that the policeman thought he was getting out his Taser instead of his firearm.  Something that was intended as a little pre-jail torture turned into murder.  That provides reasonable doubt for a jury, if this case goes to a jury trial.  I am definitely not saying that the Tasering would have been acceptable.

You will notice the response from the media and the local populace.  Bad things happen in America, and most people do not accept them.

Naw. Things are worse in America because you let everyone carry guns. Highest death rate by gunshot in the world by a staggering landslide. I wouldn't even dream of living in the States and not training and carrying a fire arm.

Now here in the UK pepper spray is considered a firearm and it is illegal to carry or discharge pepper spray without a license (i.e. being a cop). It is also illegal to defend yourself or your property with any form of weapon (even an improvised one). UK law required that you take the beating and then complain to the Police and hope the NHS can fix you up, and by dealing with crime this way no bad guys get hurt and there is no collateral damage.

So I am all in favour of weaponry being sensibly available to an accountable public. But offing a guy who is face down on the ground, unarmed, and in broad daylight infront of hundreds ow witnesses and on film. That can only happen in America. I bet the cop gets away with it too.

mbassoc2003 wrote:Naw. Things are worse in America because you let everyone carry guns. Highest death rate by gunshot in the world by a staggering landslide. I wouldn't even dream of living in the States and not training and carrying a fire arm.

Not even close, several countries in Africa have rates 3x the rate in the USA.  Brazil is usually higher than the US also in most years.

Now here in the UK pepper spray is considered a firearm and it is illegal to carry or discharge pepper spray without a license (i.e. being a cop). It is also illegal to defend yourself or your property with any form of weapon (even an improvised one). UK law required that you take the beating and then complain to the Police and hope the NHS can fix you up, and by dealing with crime this way no bad guys get hurt and there is no collateral damage.

Unbelievable.  One of the reasons I wouldn't live overseas under any circumstances.  

So I am all in favour of weaponry being sensibly available to an accountable public. But offing a guy who is face down on the ground, unarmed, and in broad daylight infront of hundreds ow witnesses and on film. That can only happen in America. I bet the cop gets away with it too.

What about this poor guy?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean_Charles_de_Menezes

I guess it was ok because it was in the UK, he was a foreigner, and he "looked" like he might be a terrorist.  Eleven shots into an unarmed student, nice job.  And good to see that not only were his murderers NEVER identified, but they were very quickly absolved of any wrongdoing, not even facing rudiumentary disciplinary hearings (so in this case, yes, the "cops" got away with it). This is actually WORSE than what happens in America, because here the shooter was quickly identified and at the VERY least will have to face a stern board of inquiry and probably lose his job.  

People need to check out the trash in their own back yard before complaining about the neighbor's overflowing dumpster....

Mike B.

Every case study that I have looked up has stated that the U.S. has the highest death rate due to firearms of all industrialized nations.  However, obviously, there are much higher death rates in your typical third world countries in Africa and Latin America.

We also have the third highest population in the world.  The U.K. comes in somewhere around 22nd.  I would suspect that the more people you have the more chances there are of shit like that happening.  Finland came in second on the list though....cant explain that one.  

Frankly I am glad for the opportunity to own a gun if I think it is necessary.  Someone tries to break into my house and hurt my family I will be damned if they ever have the opportunity to do so again.

Kingofpain89 wrote:Every case study that I have looked up has stated that the U.S. has the highest death rate due to firearms of all industrialized nations.  However, obviously, there are much higher death rates in your typical third world countries in Africa and Latin America.

Yeh, the cut off between industrialized and 3rd world nations skews the stats. Countries in Latin America and Africa absolutely lap the US in firearms deaths, but they are definitely 3rd world countries.  

The stat I always find odd is countries like Finland, Switzerland and Denmark always having higher suicide rates than countries like the UK and USA.  What is so awful about those countries that makes people want to off themselves? Too cold in the winter?????

Mike B.

The JCD shooting in London was an incident that happened immediately after the London bombings. It was a case of mistaken identity and the guy was living in the same block as a known terrorist cell that were about to betaken down that very morning.

There were a lot of extenuating circumstances, and there is still a lot of information that was heard in private ('cos us Brits can't be trusted to listen and evaluate what the authorities have to say for themselves without getting in a panic), and not divulged to the public.

Luckily the number of police that are permitted to carry guns in the UK is very low, and incidents are rare.

Admitendly, I'd feel safer living in the States than pretty much anywhere on the South American continent. And I'd rather have the 'option' to choose to defend myself that be told it's illegal to defend yourself by the state.

Badmike wrote:Ok, my football watching brethren, like myself were you shocked not once but twice today?

The Ravens go into Nashville and win a defensive battle with the Titans?   The sad sack Cardinals travel to Carolina and absolutely beat the crap out of the Panthers?  

The best thing about the Panther's loss is it takes the stink off the Cowboys playoff loss to the Giants last year. Not only did the Giants run the table and eventually win the Super Bowl, but that was a close game.  In contrast, the barely about .500 Cards, with a long history of doing nothing in the playoffs, roll into the Panther's house and dismantle them like a weight lifter tearing apart a teddy bear. It was an ass kicking from start to finish, and I would have to say right now I'd rather have the Cowboys putrid but fixable season to the mess the Panthers are staring at right now...which is that they STILL need a new QB.  Yikes.  

I promise I won't be a bit surprised if the Chargers roll the Steelers by 30 and the Eagles squeak by the Giants 6-3 tomorrow......    

Mike B.

Mike B.

I'd rather see the Ravens Vs Steelers, but I'll be pulling for the Eagles to make it all the way, if not then a Giants repeat.  But hell, since this year more history was made, why not add to it and let a rookie QB win the Superbowl with the Ravens.
Recent stats are the 1 & 2 seeded teams win 50-50. Also look at last week where on Saturday home teams win, Sunday both lose. Is it happening that way again????  

ShaneG.

mbassoc2003 wrote:IIn the UK there appears to be two teirs of gun touting cops. There are regular cops who have firearms training and carry weapons concealed withing their vehicles. These patrol a few of our major cities and are refered to as 'armed response teams' when they are deployed. They tend to deal specifically with containment of armed situations, setting up perimeters around hostage situations and/or defending first responders after major incidents involving firearms.

The second tier is the anti-terrorist squad. They are a specialised unit and trained to deploy to deal specifically with terrorist threats. They are highly trained, and like our special forces, are afforded the privelige of anonimity under the law while operational. I am sure the list of defenseless terrorist our special forces have liquidated is long and distinguished. It was this second group that were on the ground at that specific station at the time JCD walked out of the flats that the terrorist cell was also operating from.

I also doubt that a regular armed response unit could have fired seven rounds in a crouded underground train without collateral damage. The incident was one of mistaken identity from 'above' and you can't hold the operative on the ground responsible for acting. If anyone is to blame it is the operatives above who put together the op' and ran it. Not the man of the ground. And we all know these people go running for cover and have vague recollections of the specifics whenever the witchhunters decend.

There are few people in our country who are afforded the luxury of anonimity. None of the police or armed forces personel could avoid being named. Just a couple of specialised 'government deparments', the SAS and the ATS.

Wow, very interesting, I did not know about the different divisions of the UK enforcement.  I guess the closest thing to that in the US are perhaps CIA agents who are afforded some anonymity (aka the spectacularly outted Valerie Plame and her husband) but in truth, there doesn't seem to be any branch of law enforcement or service that you can completely hide your identity unless you are on operative at the highest levels.  Even FBI agents are often outted and busted when their conduct becomes too over the top (as n the case of spying).

But I agree, that sounds like spectacularly bad intelligence from the guys above (and actually a bit racist, as I guess they went with the "they all look alike" defense) to waste the poor student. Although I still wonder how eleven rounds made it into this poor shmoe's body with no weapon visible, obviously they thought the backpack contained a bomb, but even blowing the guy's head off wouldn't have helped there had it been on a timer or remote controlled by telephone.

The best parallel to me seems to be the Amadou Diallo case in New York City a few years ago, where an innocent guy was shot at 41 times (hit 19)because he pulled out his wallet (looked like a gun to the overhyped officers) as he was walking out of a apartment house in a bad area of town.  As the UK guys the officers got off although there was actually a trial (and Diallo's family got 3 mill from the city of New York). Malcolm Gladwell's book "Blink" studies the case in depth and offers up the explanation that our brains cannot process information quickly enough most of the time to deal with such split second situations, which leads to these bizarre types of shooting cases.  Mostly, that our brain fills in the blanks with information like "terrorist bombing on train", "terrorists were dark skinned", "this guy is dark skinned lives with terrorists is on a train" and comes to a sometime faulty conclusion with tragic results.  

However, still can't believe the cloak of anonymity is allowed to fall upon guys like these, because even if they truly made a mistake they really don't need to be out on the streets ever again, give them a job listening to wiretaps or something.  In the US if you are in a unjustified shooting you are basically given a desk job....I can't believe the UK people don't demand such actions.  These guys behind an op like this would have been crucified by the media pretty quickly in the US.

Mike B.

Badmike wrote:
At this point I'm rooting for a Cardinals/Ravens superbowl, just for the hilarity of seeing the network trying to hype such a train wreck of a game and desperately get some kind of ratings for teams in two such small markets.  I bet a lot of network execs went to church today and prayed for Giant and Steeler wins this afternoon to salvage some sort of ratings for the now-precarious superbowl....

Mike B.

Well heck..2 6th rank teams getting into the Superbowl would be cool.  But seems the Giants are going to be out of it never the less.

ShaneG.