some people just say the stupidest things....especially when they have no idea what they are talking about...

http://www.latimes.com/sports/sportsnow ... 1682.story

Jorge

carrejo wrote:some people just say the stupidest things....especially when they have no idea what they are talking about...

http://www.latimes.com/sports/sportsnow ... 1682.story

Jorge

Ozzie has a history of spewing forth idiocy. It's nice to see he's finally being held accountable. Cuban-Americans don't forget or forgive....this could be a rocky tenure for the new Marlin's manager.

Mike B.

Kingofpain89 wrote: So by Guillen saying something that offended Cubans, he has done a disservice to and should automatically be hated by all Hispanics?

Careful now - the Cuban exiles own all of America, & so as our natural overlords they have the right to tell us what to think. Don't ever say anything critical of Israel either, because they too own us & have the right to tell us what to think.

carrejo wrote:the stupidest things

Sure thing carrejo, since you own us & have the right to tell us all what to think. Or else.

Badmike wrote:

Kingofpain89 wrote:Yeah, but if he had said it while being manager of the Chicago White Sox, the Colorado Rockies or pretty much any team other than the Marlins, no one would give a rats ass.  But because he is the Marlins manager and knee deep in a part of the country teeming with Cubans, he is now public enemy number one it seems.  Do I think Ozzie is an idiot?  Yes.  Do I think he really meant what he said about Castro?  Nope.  You can dislike someone and still respect them and I believe that is what Ozzie was trying to communicate regarding Castro.  I also believe his apology was genuine.

Well the problem is that Ozzie has baseball's version of Tourette's syndrome, spewing forth at will.  Yeh I think the reactions are over the top, but would it be any different if he was in Philadelphia and said the best cheesesteaks in the US were in San Francisco; or in Texas and said Mexico was a filthy hellhole? You gotta understand your surroundings. I just think it's funny that Ozzie finally might have bit off more than he can chew. Cuban Americans are not rational on the subject of Castro.

Mike B.

This is America though, and no one should be suspended from their job for expressing a personal opinion. Personally I'd like to see him sue the Marlin's for suspending him but it would no doubt end his career. What I find disgusting is that the idiots in the media don't even understand the basic principles of freedom of speech (or innocent until proven guilty for that matter).

carrejo wrote:Us cuban-americans are sensitive on the subject especially those of us that had family members killed due that a$$hole.

Why did I think you were Puerto Rican?

I'm not about to say that I know what anyone living under Castro's regime had to go through.  Most Americans (and probably most people just about everywhere else as well) arent taught much about Cuba other than the geographical location of it and a couple of historical footnotes such as the Bay of Pigs and the Cuban Missile Crisis.  The only thing I know about Cuba nowadays comes from watching Anthony Bourdain on the Travel Channel.     Lots of good food, good music, and obviously....good cigars.  You dont see much of what Cuba's people are like in their day to day lives but the few you do see seem happier than they were fifty years ago.

I would expect that most Cubans who have left Cuba for the U.S. or any other country have deep feelings of hatred and sadness towards Castro.  But what amazes me is that Stalin is practically a national hero to a majority of the Russian people.  And that guy killed and imprisoned millions.  

carrejo wrote:

Sure thing carrejo, since you own us & have the right to tell us all what to think. Or else.

Listen, if Ozzie has the right to spew his idiocy then I have the right to react based on my views as well. His comments hurt me personally because of what Fidel has done to me and my family, but I think that Ozzie is not an idiot necessarily due to his comments but as the face of an organization that is really trying to embrace the cuban community here in Miami and obviously Marlins mgmt agrees since they suspended him for 5 games.

Of course it's not illegal what he said, freedom of speech etc., but the marlins have the right also to take action, especially since it will hurt their sales attendance ($$), and they wanted to send a message by suspending him.

I agree with King on this, I think that he genuinely is sorry for what he said, it was a moment of Ozzie being Ozzie and this time he got called out for the stupid comments that he made.

Us cuban-americans are sensitive on the subject especially those of us that had family members killed due that a$$hole.

The community has a right to take action, boycott, protest, etc... but what right do the Marlins have to suspend him over his comments? I agree that they were thoughtless, stupid and show a lack of understanding about what living under a dictatorship is like, but they are also his own opinions and he is free to say them without fear of punishment from his employers.

If the Marlins get away with this it is a terrible thing for a free country and no one should be happy about it.

jarloch wrote:

but they are also his own opinions and he is free to say them without fear of punishment from his employers.

We all have the right to free speech, only in very few cases do we have the right to be protected from the effects of private market entities disliking our speech.  The 1st amendment was to protect an individual from the government, not from people deciding that they don't want someone to work for them.

Is Florida a right to work state?  Does Ozzie have a clause in his contract allowing it to be terminated for conduct that negatively effects the team?   Such clauses are pretty standard.

And clause or not it wouldn't keep it from being unconstitutional. Can you be fired for supporting the Democrats or Republicans? Can you be fired for saying you admired Mao? Could you be fired for saying you admired Jesus Christ or saying that you worshipped Odin? Private market entities are not immune from civil rights violations. As much as I disagree with Ozzie's support of a ruthless dictator I would defend his right to have that opinion and the freedom to express it without sanctions from an employer. A free society can be filled with very disagreeable opinions and if you don't defend that freedom you enventually end up with an enslaved society like Castro's Cuba.

Freedom of speech is a good thing. It is also one of the shining achievements of USA society. Throwing it away when it becomes disagreeable or objectionable will cost us something more precious than I think people can understand. I say this as someone whose relatives escaped from Hungary after the '56 revolution. I understand to a great degree what the Cuban Americans in Florida are feeling. They should protest and boycott, and enjoy the freedom to do so, but also understand where that freedom comes from and why it needs to be all embracing.

Don't get me wrong. I don't see freedom of speech covering incitements to riot or criminal or terrorist conspiracys, but expressing an unpalatble political opinion has to be covered. The actions of the Marlins is a crime against every American citizen and the freedom of speech we enjoy.

jarloch wrote:I agree that it's a big to-do that should never have gotten to be a big to-do.  But I don't know if it treads into legally respected speech.  If Tom Cruise wants to talk about Scientology a lot - his religion - and his ticket sales go down because people don't want to watch him anymore, film companies can choose not to work with him anymore.

If Ozzie wants to talk politics, and the finances of the team are impacted negatively because of that, they can choose not to work with someone anymore.  

I'm not saying it's a black-and-white line, but in general, legal decisions have determined that it is not a civil right to be protected from your own speech in this way.  It does not rise to the level of protection of say, a company deciding it didn't want any catholics working for it and letting someone go for that reason.

This is an example of a punitive action because of the expression of a personal political opinion. If Tom Cruise expresses his belief in scientology and is then fired from a film or fined because of it, then it is a violation of his civil rights. The Marlins may have the right not renew Ozzie's contract but suspending him directly because of his expression of political beliefs is a punative action. The court decisions that I am aware of protect your freedom of speech from punative actions by private enterprises (though it has been decades since I studied civil rights law). Say you run a sports bar and hire a bartender who later reveals publicaly that he is a homosexual. Your business suffers do to the objections of your heterosexual customers to being served by a homosexual. Do you have the right to fire or fine the homosexual employee specifically because their sexual orientation is hurting your business?

Ozzie has an objectional belief that has nothing to do with the job he has been hired to perform, except that the customer base objects to that belief. Can the Marlins then fire, fine or suspend Ozzie directly because of that private political opinion without violating his civil rights? As far as I am aware this is a civil rights violation that rises as high as any civil rights violation and attacks their very basis of our free society. I don't think anything is going to come of it, but it is a sad spectacle to see the media approving this attack on a basic freedom we have enjoyed. If Ozzie doesn't have the right to express his private political opinion without punative repercussions from his employer then down the road we will all lose that right because this is no longer a free society.

Edit: Actually it looks like I'm wrong about protected political speech which is seperated from religeous, racial and sexual freedom of belief and expression. Some lower courts sought to expand the rights of political speech but were overturned. So Ozzie is probably toast and our society hasn't been as free as I'd been thinking.

red_bus wrote:This has not really been covered over here, but even after looking at some US news websites I am still not clear... if he has apologized, is he still banned? are people still angry? ...also, why would people in a bar watching sports not buy drinks from someone who was gay?

What Ozzie said was equivalent to saying he admired Hitler and then going to work in a community of holocaust survivors. An  "I'm sorry" just isn't going to cut it for most Cuban Americans.

As far as the sports bar thing it is pretty much cultural homophobia.